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View Diary: I support background checks! But, (132 comments)

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  •  and that is what america is about - choice. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Texas Lefty, BlackSheep1

    responsible choices are what we are debating - and how to make those choices wisely.

    EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

    by edrie on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 03:48:00 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  No, actually we are debating about (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      crose

      the people who make the most irresponsible choices, such as leaving unlocked and loaded guns where children can get at them, and about criminals, the insane, Conspiracy Theorists, and the suicidally depressed.

      We are debating about gun deaths approaching the levels of automobile deaths, and in many cases not requiring training, testing, and licensing of guns, gun dealers, or gun owners.

      Ceterem censeo, gerrymandra delenda est

      by Mokurai on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 04:37:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  and... isn't that about making choices wisely? (0+ / 0-)

        i don't see how we are disagreeing on this.

        EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

        by edrie on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 07:14:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Will this stop the 67% of those deaths from (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        PavePusher

        suicide from happening???

        NOPE.

        And Conspiracy Theory is now a problem??? One that should deny a person from exercising a right?  IS there a law against CT on the books somewhere???

        KOS doesn't want any "CT" here but that's not the law of the land, is it???

        I detest any right being "regulated" by arbitrary "standards".  Why? Because they can change to whatever the next person who gets into office decides.

        That's not Democracy, that's Tyranny by Decree.

        -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

        by gerrilea on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 11:45:56 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I presume you're aware (0+ / 0-)

          That there's a correlation between guns and successful suicide?

          A key conclusion about those who attempt suicide:

          “Studies show that most attempters act on impulse, in moments of panic or despair. Once the acute feelings ease, 90 percent do not go on to die by suicide.”
          emphasis mine

          Except for those, of course, who happen to have unwisely invited firearms into their (soon to be truncated) lives.

          Maybe instead of getting so worked up about exercising that particular right, you might want to step back and ask yourself: If I were to design an ideal policy with respect to firearms, would I really end up where the U.S. is today?  With our plethora of firearms, accidental shootings, and horrific (and climbing) rate of gun deaths?

          I wouldn't think so. Stated another way: I wouldn't think any honest, intelligent, and objective person would think so, either.

          •  Your circular argument doesn't work. (0+ / 0-)

            Isn't what you just did called "begging the question"?

            #1, I don't own any firearms and never have.

            #2 To answer your question. If I were to design a policy it would include addressing the reasons why a person becomes so desperate that they become violent.

            That said, how about ending unfunded resource wars, using said monies to fully fund free mental health care, not a for-profit health system.  Ending the racist drug war that has generationally destroyed the African American family.  Create living wage jobs by ending NAFTA, GATT and our participation in the WTO.  Releasing all non-violent drug offenders, retrain them into those living wage jobs helping rebuild our war torn inner cities.  Welcome them back into our society as free men and women, giving them a stake in it all once again.

            Dismantle the School to Prison pipeline.  Teach our children critical thinking, peaceful dispute resolution techniques.  Teach peaceful coexistence and act as a nation peacefully.

            Dismantle the Military Industrial Complex, put the bastards in jail for their crimes against humanity, crimes against nature and crimes against the American people.

            Throughout this process we will be restoring the American dream and ensuring safety and prosperity for generations to come.

            And I tell you what, once these things are accomplished, we'll have no need for a "gun policy" because Americans won't hate each other anymore.  Those truly in need of help will get it and we'll all be much safer and richer, both spiritually and economically.

            How's that for a "policy initiative"?

            NOW, as for your "honest, intelligent and objective person" theory.

            HERE, I'll leave that to the professionals.

            http://www.dailykos.com/...

            Suicide and homicide cannot be conflated. (18+ / 0-)

            As I have mentioned before, I have taught a doctoral level course on Thanatology, which is the scientific study of death and dying.  A substantial part of the course material is on suicide, which includes motive, methods, intent and precursors.  

            I can tell you with reasonable certainty that if all firearms in existence were to suddenly vanish, the suicide rate would change very little, if at all. The problem with suicide is motive and intent, not method.  If one way is thwarted, another will be found.  I know from personal experience, including keeping up with the research literature, that if a person is determined to kill themselves, there is virtually no way to prevent it.

            I seriously think you need to go back to the drawing board here and start over.

            We've been discussing these issues for a very long time here.

            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

            by gerrilea on Fri Apr 12, 2013 at 09:37:43 PM PDT

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            •  I'll trust Harvard researchers (0+ / 0-)

              Who have studied this at length over an anonymous poster on the Internet. Statistics do not back up the opinion voiced by your "source."

              But hey!  Find your backup wherever you can, if it makes you feel better. Even call noncircular circular, if you wish.

              Some of what you wrote in the first part of your comment is why I'm engaged in politics in the first place.  At the same time, I refuse to turn a blind eye to the ridiculous availability of firearms and the horrific harm they cause in our society.

              You may be fine with it.  I'm not.

              And I could not care less whether you own firearms or not. Anyone, and that includes you, who argues against increased regulation of firearms in our society is doing nothing more than licking the fetid spittle off Wayne Pierre's stinking chin.

              And I'm certain at night, he chuckles a bit about it as he drifts off to sleep.

              •  Making this discussion about me personally (0+ / 0-)

                means you really don't have a legitimate position.

                That's okay, I can accept your failure to discuss and I'll move on.

                Feel good legislation will not stop violence in this society.  

                Real reform can and will.

                I support real tangible goals that will actually save millions for generations to come.

                Out of the 33,000 firearm deaths each year 19,000+ are suicides.  The other 16,000 will be ignored by this "feel good" legislation.  The other 600,000 that attempt suicide will also be ignored.

                This "feel good" legislation will create an instant black market for weapons.  Let's talk again in 5 yrs and see how many gun deaths we still have.  

                The "anonymous" poster I quoted is anything but.

                http://jonathanturley.org/...

                And BTW, going to Harvard really doesn't mean much to me.  Don't we have a Harvard Law Graduate and Constitutional Professor that just happened to become POTUS?

                ACLU Report On Obama & Civil Liberties: Worse Than Bush

                You need to bring better credentials to this table for me to even consider your position even close to being valid.

                Good luck with that.

                -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                by gerrilea on Sat Apr 13, 2013 at 07:08:08 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

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