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View Diary: Daily Kos Labor digest: Why not apply the Teach for America model to other fields? (48 comments)

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  •  Teaching is not a "Profession"... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sparhawk

    Not in the way we think of doctors, lawyers, engineers -where you have rigid academic training, with the top students going into those fields; single accredation bodies with univerisal standards; deep in-career training, often mandated.  And I don't think in a real profession you would ever find 99.5% of the members performing at or above expectations.

    So the diarist correct - but the problem is with the teaching "profession".  Lets make it a real one.

    See this recent NYTimes article, which surprisingly none of the regular education writers seem to have commented on....

    http://www.nytimes.com/...

    •  Are you an educator? (5+ / 0-)

      Lots to dispute in the article and your post.

      No matter how cynical you get, it is impossible to keep up.--Lily Tomlin

      by Desert Rose on Tue Apr 16, 2013 at 03:49:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

        •  Answer the question, first. (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Dirtandiron, Mortifyd, houyhnhnm, JeffW

          No matter how cynical you get, it is impossible to keep up.--Lily Tomlin

          by Desert Rose on Tue Apr 16, 2013 at 03:54:27 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Oh.... (0+ / 0-)

            Because if I am not in education my opinion has no validity....?

            Stop playing childish games and respond substantively.

            •  No, because if you're not in the field (5+ / 0-)

              you likely don't understand why you're wrong.

              I've made incorrect comments myself many times, and been corrected by those in the fields in question who had a deeper understanding of just why what I thought I knew was incomplete.

              And I've certainly seen plenty of comments that demonstrate that same problem when it comes to medicine.

              You made a sweeping statement, and in fact one I suspect is largely incorrect, and then claim others are not responding substantively, or acting 'childishly'?

              The reality for educators who teach in the K-12 range is that they do indeed go through rigorous academic training, although admittedly the 'rigidity' varies - as it does in the other fields you reference.  There are good and bad education programs, just as there are good and bad legal programs or medical programs.

              Accreditation and licensure in many fields is actually not done by a 'single body' with 'universal standards', but is often done at a state level, not a federal one.

              I'm not sure where you pulled the 99.5% at or above expectations number from - I'll assume it was one of the links I haven't hit yet, but that reflects simply on the person doing those ratings, not the profession itself.  If they've already got near-universal success in meeting expectations, it's time to raise expectations, and work on getting the profession to continue to advance.

              •  The acting childishly comment... (0+ / 0-)

                ....was in response to someone who apparantly was not interested in responding to my comment unless I listed my CV.  

                I don't think anyone disputes that in the US, unlike in other countries, teachers come from the ranks of bottom academic performers, not the top, as is the case with the professions I listed.  

                If someone does not pass the bar, they don't practice law in that state...is there a similar "bar" for teachers? (and yes that is an example of my universal standards comment being wrong).

                ...the substanitive issue raised by the diary is.....why does the teaching "profession" allow someone with six months training to be a practitioner?  

                •  Actually, I don't know whether to dispute that or (5+ / 0-)

                  not.  I don't think I've ever seen any studies on which professions low academic performers take up.

                  For God's sake, Orly fricking Taitz managed to pass a bar exam, didn't she?  There are plenty of nutcases and just plain lousy lawyers out there.  Is the bar really that strenuous?

                  As a nurse, I actually felt the licensure exam to become a registered nurse (the NCLEX) was far too easy.  I felt the exams I'd taken merely in the course of my classes were far more rigorous, by and large.

                •  Oh, I'm still here. (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  JeffW, aliasalias, Mostel26

                  Like Dr. Erich said, you did make a sweeping statement, and I really don't have the time to, nor do I need to redocument the research about all the issues ignored by the neocons like: school funding, poverty, and comparing apples to oranges with international scores. The right wing has worked overtime to convince the public that public schools are failing, so they can privatize and rob public schools of the money they need.
                  I'll direct you to http://dianeravitch.net/. You can start reading articles and comments from real educators who refuse to let the neocons steal public education.

                  And if you read the comments at the NYTimes site, you'll see the commenters think the article is full of shit.

                  No matter how cynical you get, it is impossible to keep up.--Lily Tomlin

                  by Desert Rose on Tue Apr 16, 2013 at 05:41:37 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  And why is it childish to ask (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Mostel26

                    your frame of reference for your opinion?

                    No matter how cynical you get, it is impossible to keep up.--Lily Tomlin

                    by Desert Rose on Tue Apr 16, 2013 at 05:55:44 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Jesus...stay on topic if you can... (0+ / 0-)

                    The thread is about the profession of teaching and how to improve it, or its perception.  Not the right wing, PISA and ring around the collar.

                    It might surprise you but I am coming from a perspective of how to help teaching become a more highly valued profession.  I think TFA, while well intentioned, is a signpost of the problems we have...

                    I ask again, what "profession" lets people practice with 6 months trainging?  

                    •  Discuss like an adult. Keep out the Jesus talk. (0+ / 0-)

                      This diary is about comparing teaching and the demands made on educators vs. other professions.  It was lighthearted, but real.  You commented with an article written by a sociologist which posits that teaching is not  a profession on par with doctors and lawyers.  Where did 90% of those professionals attend k-12.

                      No offense, but teaching doesn't need the help of someone who thinks they know the solutions.  We have plenty of that going on right now and it's ruining public education.  

                      That IS the issue, and the subject of this diary.  That's why I have mojo and you don't.

                      No matter how cynical you get, it is impossible to keep up.--Lily Tomlin

                      by Desert Rose on Tue Apr 16, 2013 at 07:21:40 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I thought Dr. Evil took the mojo....not me... (0+ / 0-)

                        The diary was a hot sloppy mess of drive-by-diarying trying to make fun of TFA...

                        But I think it backfired because it pointed out a real problem with the "profession" of teaching - an inexperienced college graduate with six months experience can be a practictioner.  You would never see that in accounting, medicine, law, engineering....

                        So...if you want to be treated like a profession, act like one.  

              •  The 99.5% comment... (0+ / 0-)

                ...ok, I was off by .5%

                Studies of school systems as diverse as Delaware, Chicago, Atlanta, and San Francisco reveal shockingly low teacher removal rates — often less than 1% of teachers in any given year (Darling-Hammond 1996; Eisner 1992; Van Sciver 1990; Wise et al. 1984; TNTP 2007).
                •  Do other professions 'remove' their practitioners (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  JeffW, Mostel26

                  at higher rates?  Are more than 1% of lawyers disbarred a year?  More than 1% of doctors lose their licenses each year?

                  •  You asked.... (0+ / 0-)

                    One out of 97 lawyers loses their license to practice law.

                    One out of 57 doctors loses their license.

                    The New York Daily News reports that “over the past three years [2007-2010], just 88 out of some 80,000 city schoolteachers have lost their jobs for poor performance.”

                    Or look at Chicago - "only 0.1 percent of teachers were dismissed for performance-related reasons between 2005 and 2008. When barely one in four students nearing graduation can read and do math, how is it possible that only one in one thousand teachers is worthy of dismissal?"

                    In ten years, only about 47 out of 100,000 teachers were actually terminated from New Jersey’s schools.

                    Really?  

          •  At least s/he admits it. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Desert Rose, Mostel26

            Most of them say, "You don't know if I'm a teacher or not."
            (Oh yes I do.)

            Light is seen through a small hole.

            by houyhnhnm on Tue Apr 16, 2013 at 05:27:54 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  troll (0+ / 0-)

      Go back to Wendy's cult and take your boilerplate attacks on the education profession with you.

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