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View Diary: Annoying Gun Regulation in CA (91 comments)

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  •  Read the whole thing please . (7+ / 0-)

    http://www.nytimes.com/...

    Op-Ed Contributor
    Get the Lead Out of Hunting
    By ANTHONY PRIETO
    Published: December 15, 2010

    Santa Barbara, Calif.

    I’VE hunted elk, deer and wild pigs in the American West for 25 years. Like many hunters, I follow several rules: Respect other forms of life, take only what my family can eat and the ecosystem can sustain, and leave as little impact on the environment as possible.
    ..............

     The dozen friends I hunt with love shooting non-lead bullets, and it’s not just because they’re doing something good for the environment. The ballistics are better. I’ve killed more than 80 pigs and 40 deer shooting copper. These bullets travel up to 3,200 feet per second and have about a 98 percent weight retention — meaning they don’t fragment as easily as lead. Copper kills cleanly. It can help keep our hunting grounds clean as well.

    Anthony Prieto is the founder of Project Gutpile, a hunting group that advocates lead-free ammunition.

    Drop the name-calling MB 2/4/11 + Please try to use ratings properly! Kos 9/9/11

    by indycam on Wed Apr 17, 2013 at 05:35:50 PM PDT

    •  Lead shot is a problem everywhere (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      i dont get it

      Hunter shoots game. Leaves gut pile on the ground. Scavengers find gut pile. Scavengers ingest the lead.

      Condors may have a protected range in California, but in the rest of the country that's not the case for other animals. E.g.: bald eagle. The advice around here is to cover the gut pile but that's not always effective. You can cover it, some ground animal will uncover it and then the birds still find it.

      Also, the "prohibitively expensive" angle is just bullshit. For something like a slug you are talking about a 30 to 50 cent per round premium for copper vs. lead. What are we talking about here? An extra $5 per hunting trip at most? Considering what I see guys spending on guns, gear, ATVs, deer stands and everything else you "need" for hunting I don't see anyone hurting for $5 to buy shells.

      Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. - Groucho Marx

      by Joe Bob on Wed Apr 17, 2013 at 08:53:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't know anyone who fires... (0+ / 0-)

        ...most of their rounds into animals (fortunately, as they would be horrible shots and cause untold suffering to the animals if they didn't practice occasionally).

        A complete ban in California on lead bullets (if that is really what is in the bill) would mostly impact, cost wise, those that practice shooting at targets as that's how the vast majority of bullets are expended.

        Indeed, this provision (again, if it's represented accurately) is clearly intended to increase the cost of practicing at the range -- probably not a good idea given that we would rather have people more, rather than less, experienced in the operation and use of their firearms.

        If the concern is lead in wildlife, ban the use of lead bullets for hunting. A total lead bullet ban sounds just like what the diarist suggests -- just a way to discourage gun ownership and use and training rather than serving any legitimate use.

        •  So please tell me (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Dbug

          cost for non lead vs lead ?
          Now factor in clean up , non lead vs lead ?

          If you are going to make a price argument ,
          you really should show the numbers .  

          http://www.infomine.com/...

          Copper USD/lb 3.27
          Lead USD/lb 0.92
          Nickel USD/lb 7.14
          Tin USD/lb 9.65
          Zinc USD/lb 0.84
          So just on the cost of shooting 1 pound of bullets
          the lead would cost 92 cents
          the copper would cost 3.27
          a 2.35 .
          The copper would fragment less and be recyclable .
          The lead would be more fragmented , cause far greater pollution to the shooter and the environment . The chances of the lead moving from the range has to be factored into the real costs of lead vs copper .

          I'm thinking when the externalities are seen / priced ,
          the copper is going to be cheaper .

          Drop the name-calling MB 2/4/11 + Please try to use ratings properly! Kos 9/9/11

          by indycam on Wed Apr 17, 2013 at 09:26:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Prices are somewhat hard to get right now. (0+ / 0-)

            Unfortunately, it's hard to get current pricing on ammo online because most vendors are sold out of everything popular so I can't give you the prices easily.

            The cost of materials is not the entire cost -- manufacturing costs for different materials is likely different. Lead, for example, has a much lower melting point (621F) than copper (1981F) which may impact manufacturing costs and techniques.

            Note that there are other issues like cleaning copper vs. lead from barrels - more cleaning and more aggressive cleaning is likely to result in more toxic solvents being used.

            Lead is one of the most easily recyclable metals and it is recycled at ranges (what else would one do with it?). Modern ranges have air handling systems to help deal with lead.

            Fragments are not a problem at a range - they end up collected up with the rest of the lead.

            Lead Acid batteries that are not recycled properly also introduce lead into the environment. California would probably be better off banning these (after all, we have plenty of other chemistries - they just cost more and require different charging systems, even if consumers had to spend $750 changing their charging systems when they next replace their batteries, we would presumably want to do that for the sake of the environment).

            Given that this is being introduced with a rash of gun control bills, there's little doubt in my mind what the real purpose of it is.

            •  OK . (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Joe Bob

              http://www.dailykos.com/...

              California would probably be better off banning these
              Nope , that's not true . The recycling rate is nearly 100% . That is not the case with lead bullets .
              Fragments are not a problem at a range - they end up collected up with the rest of the lead.
              This is so not true that you are completely uninformed or just posting outright lies .
              Unfortunately, it's hard to get current pricing on ammo online because most vendors are sold out of everything popular so I can't give you the prices easily.
              So you don't know , you just say its expensive . But when it comes to posting the numbers ...
              The cost of materials is not the entire cost -- manufacturing costs for different materials is likely different. Lead, for example, has a much lower melting point (621F) than copper (1981F) which may impact manufacturing costs and techniques.
              So tell me , how much more per bullet to cast copper than lead ?
              Do the math . Calculate the cost of the energy to melt a pound of copper and lead .
              Lead is one of the most easily recyclable metals and it is recycled at ranges (what else would one do with it?). Modern ranges have air handling systems to help deal with lead.
              You don't really believe this do you ? You can't be reading up on this subject and think you can pull this off do you ?

              You are saying things that are so far from the truth ,
              its like you are trying to pretend .
              Unfortunately things are not as you claim .
              In reality , in the real world ...

              Just making BS statements is fine and dandy ,
              try providing proof next time .
              I've studied this subject , I can tell that you have not or disregard the truth .

              Drop the name-calling MB 2/4/11 + Please try to use ratings properly! Kos 9/9/11

              by indycam on Thu Apr 18, 2013 at 07:18:49 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Now that's not practical (0+ / 0-)

          How do you enforce hunting v non hunting bullets?  It's not like all hunters are just going to comply.  Maybe if there were jail time for using lead outdoors and permanaent loss of rights to own guns it might work

          Touch all that arises with a spirit of compassion

          by Mindful Nature on Thu Apr 18, 2013 at 07:07:36 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  most hunting rounds fired in California are (0+ / 0-)

        shotgun rounds.  Where a deer hunter might fire a few rounds during the season, a serious bird hunter goes through hundreds of shotgun shells, both for practice rounds and dove and quail hunting.

        At this time, non-toxic shotgun shells in CA are about 50% more expensive than lead shells.

        I'd be happy if the legislation included some kind of monetary incentives for manufacturers to offer non-toxic shotshells.

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