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View Diary: I don't want this to be another 9/11. (239 comments)

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  •  I've never seen anything like this before (5+ / 0-)

    I know that calling the Guard in to quell riots became almost routine in the 60's.  I've never seen APC's swarming a major city or a city being placed under lockdown to catch 1 guy, however.  Hell, I don't recall the entire cities of LA or Detroit being placed under daytime lockdown during riots when dozens of people were killed and entire blocks were on fire.  

    I never saw cops use identical paramilitary tactics to crush unarmed protestors in a series of cities like we saw w/ Occupy in 2011-12.   9/11 changed everything.

    Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream of things that never were and ask why not?

    by RFK Lives on Fri Apr 19, 2013 at 11:01:30 AM PDT

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    •  Actually, Detroit was a lot more restrained. (0+ / 0-)

      There were military snipers on rooftops for days even after the rioting was over. I'd much prefer being asked to stay home for the day, both for my own safety and to stay out of the way, than be informed that stepping outside any time in the next several days could get me shot, at the discretion of a nervous 20-year old two blocks away.

      When the military moved in, it was with 8,000 Guardsmen and 4,700 members of the 82nd Airborne.

      So, you may not have seen it, but by historical standards the level of force in play here is not only easily within precedents, it's comparatively tiny. Heck, if you're dealing with a bomber who may have left IEDs in his wake, why would you not use APCs?

      Now, the response to Occupy is another thing altogether. I've been defending this specific response to a very real threat to public safety. I didn't then, don't now, and can't imagine ever supporting the use of force to disperse peaceful protesters on public land.

      9/11 most assuredly did not change everything. I'm used to hearing right-wingers make that statement, because it gives them access to power. But it bothers me far more when progressives make it, because therein lie the seeds of capitulation. Fear and hatred only win if reason and compassion pack up and go home.

      "Do it in the name of Heaven; you can justify it in the end..." - Dennis Lambert & Brian Potter

      by pragmaticidealist on Fri Apr 19, 2013 at 01:49:01 PM PDT

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      •  Militarized police (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AoT, dharmasyd

        That is unprecedented.  Never before have local police forces been armed and equipped like this before.  Some of those guys in camo are police, not military.  Do some research on the Pentagon's program for giving "surplus" equipment to state, county and local police departments.  Do some research on Homeland Security grants to law enforcement.  

        Police departments didn't have Lenco Bearcats before.  There are small sheriff departments with these things now and police departments.  Just look at the marketing for that thing and the cultural change is bleeding obvious. This is one of their marketing videos.  It got a lot of attention a year of so ago. Those guys are not military. They are police, militarized.

        We didn't even have a Homeland Security department before.

        We didn't have extensive counterterrorism units, fusion centers, the surveillance and intelligence shared across all of these agencies and police departments before.


        "Justice is a commodity"

        by joanneleon on Fri Apr 19, 2013 at 02:47:41 PM PDT

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        •  The militarized police mindset worries me (0+ / 0-)

          (I apologize in advance for the length of this response, but I want to give full weight to your critique -- and I want to respond today, which means I can't take my usual lengthy pause while my mental editor figures out what to cut.)

          I thought you were concerned about the presence of the military in Boston; that's why I responded as I did. But to an extent, my answer is similar. The "unprecedented" militarization of today's law enforcement does indeed follow precedent.

          There's no question that police have been increasingly militarized, starting with the introduction of SWAT back in '67. The original idea -- that the increasingly risky challenges posed by ever-more-heavily armed criminals, hostage rescue, etc. required a new kind of police unit -- has always been controversial. The progression since then, and particularly in the last couple of decades, whereby ordinary police officers are routinely armed and armored like the SWAT teams of old, is even more controversial.

          On the one hand, I can see the logic: you can't ask police officers to face crooks with more firepower than they have themselves. And there's no question that today's criminals (and not just the terrorists, though they're a large part of the justification) can bring a whole lot more firepower into play than could their predecessors of just a few years back.

          And don't get me started on the whole "Homeland Security" nonsense.

          Not that long ago, it was the norm for beat cops to go essentially unarmed; a truncheon was all they needed or wanted. As criminals moved to greater violence and heavier weapons, so too did the police. Truncheons gave way to guns. Eventually, they added Mace and pepper spray and tasers. Right or wrong, the intent was to give the police the ability to respond with the most appropriate level of force to maintain the peace or ensure public safety when faced with increasing levels of criminal violence.

          My biggest concern isn't that the police are being given weapons on a par with those they're expected to combat. It's not even that they're often bringing much heavier firepower, with the reasoning that an overwhelming mismatch will either lead to a less violent solution ("Look at those things! I'm giving up!") or at least a faster resolution, posing less danger to innocents and the police themselves.

          My worry is that we're shifting how police are trained, from being members of the community they're supposed to protect to being paramilitary occupiers of enemy ground. It's a change in mindset far more than it is of firepower, and the effects have at times been horrifying. The intelligence units and counter-terror units and high-tech surveillance units and such are both a symptom and a further cause of this transformation.

          To me, the APCs and assault rifles and all aren't the problem in and of themselves. It's that they represent a change in how police officers are being trained to think of us all, criminal and innocent civilian alike. Increasingly, we're not those they have sworn to "protect and serve" but simply enemies, potential enemies, and potential casualties.

          NOTE: I do NOT believe that most police officers think this way, or that the vast majority of those who do are aware of it. It's a change that's crept into how we train law enforcement officers, and it's insidious. So far, I don't think we've reached a point of no return, or even necessarily a tipping point, but if we don't fix the problem fairly soon, we may get there.

          "Do it in the name of Heaven; you can justify it in the end..." - Dennis Lambert & Brian Potter

          by pragmaticidealist on Fri Apr 19, 2013 at 03:18:53 PM PDT

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        •  The Progressive City of Berkeley, (0+ / 0-)

          ...previously called "the People's Republic of Berkeley,"just went in with the University of California and the City of Albany to buy something like these bearcat APC thingies.  

          The Berkeley PD even sends it's personnel to Israel for training with the Israeli Defense Force in tactics for crowd (read: 'Palestinian') control.

          The liberal, progressive City of Berkeley no longer exists.  

          Welcome to the New World Order!

          "The war against Bradley Manning is a war against us all." Chris Hedges

          by dharmasyd on Fri Apr 19, 2013 at 04:31:40 PM PDT

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