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View Diary: Are Chechens Really White? Racial Formation Theory and the Boston Marathon Bombing (207 comments)

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  •  Definitely not just a matter of color (0+ / 0-)

    But races are trans-ethnic, and ethnicities are trans-racial. Jews are a great example of that. There are Jews of all races. Similarly, the various races all contain numerous ethnicities. Ethnic hatreds have a long history in Europe, but racism is a relatively recent phenomenon. Various ethnicities have been racialized and race has been integrated into ethnic hatreds, but they aren't the same thing.

    If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

    by AoT on Fri Apr 19, 2013 at 03:30:15 PM PDT

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    •  The European concept of race is an old one (0+ / 0-)

      that has change and morphed over time. What it meant in antiquity is very different from the present. In antiquity it was essentially synonymous with our notion of ethnicity. This means that the modern European notion of race is rooted in ethnicity.

      Your statement that races are trans-ethnic and ethnicities are trans-racial is an idea that has an extremely short pedigree. It certainly wasn't the accepted view in Europe prior to WWII and it isn't really generally accepted there even today.

      Forgive me for saying so but I think you are imposing a peculiarly American frame of reference where it neither culturally or historically appropriate.

      Nothing human is alien to me.

      by WB Reeves on Fri Apr 19, 2013 at 03:46:32 PM PDT

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      •  Now you're making claims you need to back up (0+ / 0-)

        The European concept of race arose in the era of colonialism. This is a generally accepted reality among historians of the subject. If you want to push that back and make up new definitions then you're going to need to document the history.

        Your statement that races are trans-ethnic and ethnicities are trans-racial is an idea that has an extremely short pedigree. It certainly wasn't the accepted view in Europe prior to WWII and it isn't really generally accepted there even today.
        You're not even talking about race at all. You're talking about ethnicity. Races are all transethnic, or it would be an ethnicity. Where are you getting all this from, because it's nothing like any history of the subject I've ever read.

        If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

        by AoT on Fri Apr 19, 2013 at 03:53:11 PM PDT

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        •  Which historians? (0+ / 0-)

          Show me a historian who will claim that the term "race" was not present in European discourse prior to the colonial period.

          Not to be rude but have you read any of the histories of antiquity or the classical period?

          Are you certain that the historians to which you refer are not drawing a distinction between modern notions of race, including color based racism and pre-modern notions of race?

          Nothing human is alien to me.

          by WB Reeves on Fri Apr 19, 2013 at 04:11:07 PM PDT

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          •  Start with Winthrop Jordan, or even the book (0+ / 0-)

            White: the history of a word. A short history of racism also gets into this. Race is a modern idea. Race as you are using it is one from antiquity rooted in nations, barbarians, outsiders, and the like.

            The Invention of the white race vols 1 and 2 gets into this history in an accessible way. Of course Painter's work which I linked to in the piece.

            Romans were a "race" but they were of different colors for example.

            •  Thanks for the suggestions (0+ / 0-)

              Just to be clear, it's my opinion that the development of racism and white supremacy expanded upon and transformed earlier European notions of race, not that they are identical.

              One of the advantages of the Romans was that their ideas of law/custom and civitas trumped notions of biological particularism.  

              Nothing human is alien to me.

              by WB Reeves on Fri Apr 19, 2013 at 10:50:43 PM PDT

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