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View Diary: How the trampling civil liberties failed Boston (214 comments)

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  •  hardship? (5+ / 0-)

    you know what might have represented a hardship to some? getting their legs or arms or faces blown off by IEDs planted all around boston. getting shot in the head by an ar-15. getting carjacked by terrorists.

    this was, quite literally, a matter of life and death public safety. tough luck on missing out on 7 hours pay. consolation prize is you get to remain alive.

    •  Spoken by someone secure in his or her (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gerrilea

      life of privilege who has never lived from paycheck to paycheck.

      I think you're way out of line.

      •  dude (7+ / 0-)

        this was a national security emergency. do you not understand this? what do you think should be the threshold for staying home from work? nuclear fallout? a tsunami? the soviet union reconstituting in order to invade, red dawn style? this was quite literally a matter of life and death.

        and thank you very much, i live paycheck to paycheck every week. and do you know what the operative word in that phrase is? LIVE. i stayed home today like everyone else.

        •  What part of "national" could two people pose (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          IreGyre

          To our "security"?

          Did they have nuclear weapons? Nope.

          Did they have "weapons of mass destruction? Nope.

          YOU'VE got to be kidding.  Stoking the fear and paranoia card doesn't work with me, I live paycheck to paycheck and will you make up my hourly wage when I'm ordered off the streets?

          Here in Buffalo, we've had "driving bans" during bad snow storms and I've had to drive into work anyways.  And you can ask any freaking resident former or current if their employer pays them if they don't show up for work.  If they close early, do they get paid for the lost wages?  Do they get anything? NOPE, NOPE & NOPE.

          -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

          by gerrilea on Fri Apr 19, 2013 at 10:39:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  you mean (5+ / 0-)

            aside from the fact that they shot and killed a cop 1.5 blocks from an unsecured HEU reactor in the middle of a major metropolitan area? aside from the fact that it was and remains unknown whether they were working with other accomplices or terror cells in boston or elsewhere to plan or carry out additional conventional and/or unconventional attacks around the united states? aside from the fact that it was and remains unknown if they possessed any other armaments, including unconventional weapons? aside from the fact that the police found and detonated additional pressure cooker-based bombs in cambridge today? aside from the fact that they were on the loose with semi-automatic weapons and explosives and were clearly willing to wantonly murder innocent bystanders in and around boston? asid from the fact that they had already murdered and/or severely injured hundreds of innocent people in the signature international event that boston hosts every year, focusing the attention of the entire world on us?

            i mean, based on your logic, why was 9/11 a national emergency? they only hijacked a few planes. there are over 300,000,000 people in america. twice that many planes wouldnt even make a dent in the population, and plus they only crashed in two different states, and there were only like 20 terrorists. dont we have like a million army dudes in our army? more like a new york city emergency, right?

            •  So, the trillions we've spent and the liberties (0+ / 0-)

              we've lost were all for naught?

              aside from the fact that it was and remains unknown whether they were working with other accomplices or terror cells in boston or elsewhere to plan or carry out additional conventional and/or unconventional attacks around the united states?
              Seriously, I'm not that stupid.

              -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

              by gerrilea on Sat Apr 20, 2013 at 12:24:00 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  yeah, it would have been be weird to think (0+ / 0-)

                that two guys who just detonated giant IEDs in the middle of crowded city streets might be part of a terrorist cell that intended further attacks. such a thing has never happened before, and it would have been foolish and rash for law enforcement agencies to even consider that angle.

                •  Hon, the police state apparatus we've paid (0+ / 0-)

                  billions for,while shredding that damn piece of paper tells me it was all for naught.  They should have intercepted these guys before they blew up their bombs.

                  -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                  by gerrilea on Sat Apr 20, 2013 at 05:33:41 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  are you kidding me? (4+ / 0-)
            YOU'VE got to be kidding.  Stoking the fear and paranoia card doesn't work with me, I live paycheck to paycheck and will you make up my hourly wage when I'm ordered off the streets?
            no one was stopping anyone from going to work in boston today except within a small perimeter surrounding an active crime scene in watertown where an actual terrorist was on the loose. did he plant bombs and booby traps in the area? was he hiding in the bushes waiting to shoot commuters come daybreak? all unknown, and all completely plausible scenarios from law enforcement and public safety standpoints. again, if you were more informed about this you wouldnt be so wrong.

            i know a lot of people working in the trades. im pretty sure they'd rather go without $100 if that meant risking a bullet in the head. oh, im stoking paranoia? everyone in boston spent the last week staring at mangled and bloodied corpses laying in their own neighborhoods. and last night a fucking rambo meets  die hard terrorist running gun battle was raging through the streets of watertown, mass. the last time watertown saw action like that was in 1776.

            •  I didn't see any terrorists but an angry American (0+ / 0-)

              What hasn't been answered yet is: Did our foreign policy create this angry immigrant?  If that's the case then we're in deep shit.

              "Working in the trades", "Go without a $100"---I make $9 an hour, after taxes I take home $295 a week.  If I get lucky and get overtime, I might bring home, $345.  Yahoo!

              As for the " risking a bullet in the head", how many times have you been mugged, assaulted or held up at gun point? Me: the answers are 2, 3 and 2.  That's a reality every day when you live in poor neighborhoods in America.

              Maybe you should revise your claim of being a working man.

              -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

              by gerrilea on Sat Apr 20, 2013 at 12:32:04 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  hey, your lack of earning power is really relevant (0+ / 0-)

                so lets have a contest about who makes less money. that should be productive.

                do you know how many people are assaulted and mugged at gunpoint in watertown, mass everyday? im guessing you dont, since you're from buffalo and continue to have zero knowledge of the boston area or the events that took place yesterday. let me give you a hint: very, very few. in fact, on most days, that number is zero. but do you know how many people in watertown were in the actual line of fire of actual gun and bomb-wielding international terrorists yesterday? quite a few -- go look at the videos.

                so in that context, i just want to be clear: you feel the best way for the government to protect its citizens from extremely dangerous and ultra violent terrorist who are in the process of attacking a major metropolitan area is to:

                1. not search for them
                2. make fewer efforts to keep people off the streets than during a severe winter storm
                3. advise local businesses in the area to remain open
                4. not call in outside agencies to provide additional personnel and expertise

                let me just say i'm glad boston didnt take your advice, and that they instead ended up apprehending a single terrorist, along with his possible conspirators, in well under 24 hours using common sense police tactics and wide-scale, voluntary community involvement.

                as to the money thing: i'm sorry you're poor or whatever your point on this completely unrelated issue is. and in that context, i presume you are just as infuriated at the unconstitutionality of parking bans and road closures during blizzard conditions like we had in boston 2.5 months ago? its weird that we never saw any diaries about commisar deval patrick pop up at that point, even as the rights of the working man and the freedom of all americans were once again being trod down upon by the anti-snow police state.

                •  You can't be serious here. (0+ / 0-)

                  Get through your head we are a nation ruled by law, not the Police, that law is our Constitution.  They were never granted such arbitrary powers, ever.  Even in a declared war the US Constitution is still valid and in effect, get that through your head.

                  Our government wasn't created to "protect me from myself", whether I go out in a snow storm or go out while them "terrurists" are gunning for us.

                  Ultimately it IS up to each of us to defend this nation if need be.  It is not only our duty but our obligation.  So the happy horseshit your slinging here means squat.

                  As for my finances, you made a false statement that I should forgo a couple days pay and live in fear of dying by some numbnuts hiding on a freaking boat slowly dying.  A couple days pay is the difference between me having a home or not.

                  As for the bullshit about no one, correction "very few" in MA ever gets mugged, assaulted or held up at gun point...prove it baby.  Show me some stats.


                  The choices are clear: live free without fear or not.

                  I chose to live without fear, clearly you cannot.  

                  I've never bought into the New American Police State.  We become no better than any other Banana Republic when we ignore our founding principles and the rule of law.

                  Then those "terrusts" have won.

                  "So this is how democracy dies, with thunderous applause!"

                  -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                  by gerrilea on Sat Apr 20, 2013 at 05:51:59 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  Were you ever arrested (0+ / 0-)

            while driving during a driving ban? I'd guess not.

            “We are not a nation that says ‘don’t ask, don’t tell.’ We are a nation that says ‘out of many, we are one.’” -Barack Obama

            by skohayes on Sat Apr 20, 2013 at 03:45:43 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  If I had been, I'd promptly fight it and send the (0+ / 0-)

              bill to my employer.

              Their "SOP" is you get to work by any means necessary or you don't get paid.

              -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

              by gerrilea on Sat Apr 20, 2013 at 05:59:15 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  A "national security emergency"? Give me (0+ / 0-)

          a friggin' break. Right up there with the Cuban Missile Crisis and Pearl Harbor it was, all right.

          The same government whom you claim cares about workers' physical safety couldn't give a good goddamn whether someone is evicted for failing to pay rent or foreclosed upon for failing to pay a mortgage.

          So will the City of Boston or the Commonwealth of Mass reimburse any hourly worker for the 8 hours of wages they missed out on???

          Unless you can answer that question in the affirmative, you remain way, way out of line.

          •  why would boston reimburse workers? (0+ / 0-)

            why on earth would boston reimburse workers for lost wages when their privately-owned employers voluntarily told them to stay home from work? is that how things work where you're from?

            do you think the city of boston should reimburse all minimum wage workers when driving bans are put in place during severe snow storms and hurricanes, as routinely happens in boston?

            also, just for fun, what other public safety measures do you think should be tossed aside so that people can get to work, no matter what?

            how about federal and state holidays? do you think the city, state, or federal government should reimburse hourly workers for lost wages on weekday holidays? im going to go waaaaaaay out on a limb and say "no." so on patriots day on monday, which is a local state holiday in mass. and boston in particular, you are fine with people not being able to work, but when international terrorists are running around the city blowing people up, shooting them dead, and car-jacking them in the streets? nope. must REIMBURSE all workers or else massachusetts -- MASSACHUSETTS -- possibly the most worker-friendly state in the US -- is an anti-poor police state!

            (i'm guessing you're not aware of how ridiculous you sound when making these points)

            •  Why on earth would Boston (0+ / 0-)

              reimburse workers for lost wages? Um, because it asked workers to stay home and forgo 8 hours of wages and they need those wages to pay their rent, food, utilities, etc.

              Whatever. The empathy deficit here really sucks sometimes. You exemplify said deficit.

              •  way to not answer the question (0+ / 0-)

                about snow days and inclement weather driving bans, which is the entire crux of my point: local and state governments take these types of public safety measures all the time. similarly: way to avoid the entire fact that all non-government places of work that were closed chose to do so voluntarily. in other words, way to entirely block from view all facts about this situation that don't support your agenda, which is to somehow turn this entire situation into an economic issue, which it is not.

                Whatever. The empathy deficit here really sucks sometimes. You exemplify said deficit.
                seriously, dude: i'm totally thrilled that some people couldnt get to work, and therefore lost money. its not that i think their safety and ability to remain living and breathing should have trumped a single days day. it's that i am callous, and think that poor people arent important. THAT is definitely the takeaway from this weeks events in boston: massachusetts doesnt care about workers. right?
                •  You definitely failed to consider workers' lost (0+ / 0-)

                  wages until they were brought to your attention. That's not being 'callous,' per se, but it is being 'unthinking.'

                  Your repeated use of the patronizing and dismissive 'dude' signals to me that there is little point in continuing this discussion.

          •  Boston and Mass.. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            jaym, Ahianne

            ...do not have to make up lost wages of people affected. There is your answer.

            They also wouldn't if an arsonist burnt down a building where people worked, or if someone took hostages in a building where people worked, or if they had evacuate people because of a fire or weather event. Maybe you think they should. That's a separate issue than whether a being asked to stay inside during an extraordinary circumstance means one lives in police state. (sigh)

            BTW Lower Manhattan was blocked off for many days after 9/11, which meant that I lost a week's work. Funny that it never occurred to me that the City of New York owed me back wages and were violating my right to wander around a crime scene. guess I'm not as smart as some people here.

            •  Yeah, I do think workers should not lose wages (0+ / 0-)

              over this. (I also think there should be a Guaranteed Annual Income per McGovern 1972 but that's an entirely different quesiton.)

              Maybe i should have set up a poll: how many DKosers are just fine with hourly workers losing 8 hours of pay for this?

      •  They're out of line for worrying about life and (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Otteray Scribe, worldlotus

        (literally) limb before anything else? Money is for sure incredibly important in our society, but it doesn't do you any good if you're dead.

        •  The same government you claim is so (0+ / 0-)

          concerned about citizens' physical safety couldn't give a good goddamn whether those citizens are evicted or foreclosed upon.

          This Shelter In Place order was a comfortable bourgeois decree that basically tosses the working class to the curb and right on under the bus. Quelle surprise.

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