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View Diary: The Boston Marathon Bombing Shows Us How White Privilege Hurts White People...Again (110 comments)

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  •  Here's the problem (5+ / 0-)

    The definitions of "white" have shifted mightily over the years, and, no, they haven't included Muslims much, not here in the USA.

    Here, in the very state where the events occured, we have a history of this: read up on Sacco and Vanzetti, two "criminals" who were used as scapegoats because their names ended in vowels. Also look up the Boston history of "No Irish Need Apply".

    So, white privilege only extends to those people whom the community--not law or anything else--have deemed to be "white". Do Irish people look not-white to anybody? Nevertheless, they were treated as such, in my late Irish grandparents' lifetime, right where the bombings happened.

    White does not mean "fair-skinned". It has NEVER meant fair-skinned. It means, fair-skinned people who also belong to the dominant culture/religion/class. White Anglo-Saxon Protestant wasn't made up--and, if you weren't the last two, you weren't the first, either.

    While this has changed somewhat, it certainly has NOT changed for Muslim immigrants.

    "Maybe: it's a vicious little word that could slay me"--Sara Bareilles

    by ChurchofBruce on Mon Apr 22, 2013 at 11:03:45 AM PDT

    •  love that bit of living history memory myth (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Avila

      making about those signs that were anti-Irish.

      there is research in social history and American studies which suggests those signs did not exist. if they did were very rare.

      http://wearerespectablenegroes.blogspot.com/...

      I link to some it there. I am equal opportunity, I call out that Willie Lynch mess too that many black folks are obsessed with.

      Legal standing is a big part of how whiteness and white privilege were protected and established. In my previous piece on this topic I mention a few of those resources.

      •  Wow. What a condescending and incorrect reply. (10+ / 0-)

        Widespread virulent anti-Irish sentiment has irrefutable historical documentation regardless of how poorly it fits into your rather one-dimensional world view.  No number of on-line refutations can eliminate the reality of that documentation.

        Having said that, much of the Irish and Italian hatred was due not ONLY to viewing them as "non white" but also was a result of them being Catholic. So it was more complicated than simply white or not white.  But that dimension of the issue absolutely existed with great prominence.

        Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!

        by bigtimecynic on Mon Apr 22, 2013 at 11:34:29 AM PDT

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        •  i didn't say that there was not anti-irish bigotry (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Larsstephens, Avila

          in the u.s. or the uk. not once. what I said was that we have a fascinating case where living memory, i.e. that of signs which apparently did not exist in the U.S. being taken as a fact, and also as prop for the white anti-civil rights ethnic backlash of the 1970s.

          Read some of that work, very fascinating. You will learn something new.

          I am very familiar with the ethnic studies literature on the topic. Again, I was surprised by some of Jensen's research too. Calm down and check it out.

          •  In my Irish Studies class textbook (0+ / 0-)

            there were 2 photographs where versions of that sign were being displayed, both in NYC. Political cartoons from that time pictured Irish as being ragged, barefoot and darker-skinned--"dirty." That's not to say that the depth and length of time during which Irish immigrants were discriminated against was anything close to what blacks went through and continue to experience.

      •  Anti-irish hate (3+ / 0-)

        was just as real as any other hate; it's not a memory myth.

        I'm afraid that my signature won't match the mood of my comment.

        by heybuddy on Mon Apr 22, 2013 at 11:40:02 AM PDT

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        •  see above comment. work on your critical (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Larsstephens, Avila

          thinking and reading skills.

          •  Yep, all of us made the same mistake about (3+ / 0-)

            your point, but it's not you; it's us, obviously, with no thinking or reading skills.

            I'm afraid that my signature won't match the mood of my comment.

            by heybuddy on Mon Apr 22, 2013 at 11:57:28 AM PDT

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            •  no, many people respond very instinctively (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Larsstephens, Avila

              and with hostility when cherished myths about white ethnic "oppression" are challenged. go back and read jensen's work and some others also linked to. I would suggest the book Roots Too, and then let's chat. You are making claims in a vacuum.

              •  Referring to other (3+ / 0-)

                racialist authors doesn't prove your point. The Irish had a tough way to go, as did many other groups, and that is not me responding instinctively nor with hostility. You called it a myth, and you are incorrect.

                I have noticed a pattern in your race-centric worldview, and I don't think it's very healthy for you, the people you claim to advocate for, nor society in general.

                I'm afraid that my signature won't match the mood of my comment.

                by heybuddy on Mon Apr 22, 2013 at 12:26:13 PM PDT

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                •  more silly talk. "racialist authors " (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Larsstephens, Avila

                  who the heck are they? you mean established historians who are respected, have earned bonafides, and are widely read and cited. be serious please and stop trolling.

                  •  Chauncey, (3+ / 0-)

                    There are many pseudo-historians that one can reference to support whatever cockamamy belief one might be trying to push.

                    You lost this one. The irish were oppressed. That's it. It's not a myth and I'm not stupid nor racist for correcting you.  

                    I'm afraid that my signature won't match the mood of my comment.

                    by heybuddy on Mon Apr 22, 2013 at 12:41:49 PM PDT

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                    •  okay full tenured pseudo historian at a major (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      awesumtenor, Larsstephens, Avila

                      university? I am not talking about Beck's hack Barton. You are fighting out of your weight class but you keep trying.

                      Again, you have basic reading comprehension issues. No where did I say the Irish did not have a hard time upon their initial arrival in America.

                      You are dishonest and anti-intellectual as you won't even challenge your priors or read an article or book you judge to be "racialist."

                      My time is valuable. You are a troll. Move along. I have wasted too much energy engaging colorblind racists such as yourself and the three or four other characters who show up to haunt the threads when I write here on the Daily Kos.

                      I have decided, as I did with one of your fellow colorblind racists on the earlier post, to ignore you as you are desperate for attention and to deflect and derail what could be productive conversations.

                      Kos does not allow posters to moderate their own comment sections; but I can choose to ignore time wasters such as yourself. be gone; have a nice day.

      •  Can't speak to signs or ads (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ChurchofBruce, CuriousBoston

        But the anti Irish sentiment (especially Irish Catholic) was alive and well into my parent's generation.

        "No one life is more important than another. No one voice is more valid than another. Each life is a treasure. Each voice deserves to be heard." Patriot Daily News Clearinghouse & Onomastic

        by Catte Nappe on Mon Apr 22, 2013 at 11:42:43 AM PDT

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        •  not disputing that, just talking about signs (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Larsstephens, Avila

          and also the myths surrounding anti-irish discrimination in the labor market. check out the links. you may find them revelatory.

          •  Still can't speak to signs (3+ / 0-)

            However, (at risk of being labeled "hostile") I'd point out that  in your link one excerpt includes this:

            The business literature, both published and unpublished, never mentions NINA or any policy remotely like it. The newspapers and magazines are silent.
            Which this link would seem to refute in some small way.
            http://yesteryearsnews.wordpress.com/...
            Just two of several examples they give:
            The other day we tossed a scallion to an Irish-owned Employment Agency on 6th Avenue because it posted a sign reading: “No Irish Need Apply.”
            Nevada State Journal (Reno, Nevada) Mar 23, 1932
            In running my eye over your list of local news items April 1st, my attention was particularly attracted by an advertisement for the respectable and responsible position of “maid of all work” with the qualifying (but not obsolete) phrase “no Irish need apply.”
            Titusville Morning Herald (Titusville, Pennsylvania) Apr 2, 1872

            "No one life is more important than another. No one voice is more valid than another. Each life is a treasure. Each voice deserves to be heard." Patriot Daily News Clearinghouse & Onomastic

            by Catte Nappe on Mon Apr 22, 2013 at 12:48:15 PM PDT

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            •  never hostile :) (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Catte Nappe, Larsstephens, Avila

              good dialogue is appreciated. That is good research. Someone makes a claim/authors and article and then someone else goes out and does more work.

              There is a great book that has been reprinted a number of times called the Ethnic Myth which has some great stuff about the ethnic labor market. Very fascinating and enlightening.

            •  Last time I was at (5+ / 0-)

              the Baseball Hall of Fame--about 8 years ago--there was an exhibit about early 19th century baseball and its growth. They had, as part of the exhibit, an advertisement for tryouts for an amateur team in NYC--and that ad for a baseball team said No Irish Need Apply!

              I mean, Jesus, there's enough out there. The link says that he could only find "one instance" of any NINA ad applying to males--and there was one at the freakin' Baseball Hall of Fame!! Talk about ignoring whatever doesn't meet your thesis...

              "Maybe: it's a vicious little word that could slay me"--Sara Bareilles

              by ChurchofBruce on Mon Apr 22, 2013 at 03:32:03 PM PDT

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          •  I'd rather use the resources at the Boston Public (0+ / 0-)

            Library, the old, old, old photographs there. The diaries of the people that experienced the "No Irish Need Apply".
            Links that lead to archival material in the BPL. Call or email the reference librarians.

            Might try the JFK library, too. Archives of many early Boston citizens there.

            Mutiple sources, with proven scholarship.

            2012-2016 President Obama, Vice President Biden, Senator Warren. For a LIFETIME, federal judges. Get the filibuster changed. Steamroll. http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact/submit-questions-and-comments

            by CuriousBoston on Mon Apr 22, 2013 at 05:16:30 PM PDT

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    •  What about "poor white trash"? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      heybuddy, crose

      America has a caste system based on social class as well. The proverbial "other side of the tracks". If the class divide in America is strictly racial, then the 99% makes no sense.

      I never liked you and I always will.

      by Ray Blake on Mon Apr 22, 2013 at 03:29:39 PM PDT

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      •  That, too (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        heybuddy, crose

        That's why I made reference to dominant culture/religion/class. Though my examples had more to do with culture/religion, it works for class, too.

        "Maybe: it's a vicious little word that could slay me"--Sara Bareilles

        by ChurchofBruce on Mon Apr 22, 2013 at 03:33:21 PM PDT

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        •  Which raises the question, are poor (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          CuriousBoston, ChurchofBruce

          disenfranchised rednecks really white in the sense of privilege? My reservations about identity politics is that it prioritizes race and gender to the exclusion of class consciousness, which the Rich Right (and elements of the Rich Left) just love. The 2008 crash and the Occupy movement did much to put social class back on the radar screen of Democrats, much to our benefit.

          I never liked you and I always will.

          by Ray Blake on Mon Apr 22, 2013 at 04:44:28 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  yes; they are (0+ / 0-)

            The wikipedia entry on White Privilege notes it thusly:

            Many analyses of white privilege interpret "whiteness" as an intangible economic good. In his 1935 Black Reconstruction in America, W. E. B. Du Bois first described the "psychological wages" of whiteness:

            It must be remembered that the white group of laborers, while they received a low wage, were compensated in part by a sort of public and psychological wage. They were given public deference and titles of courtesy because they were white. They were admitted freely with all classes of white people to public functions, public parks, and the best schools. The police were drawn from their ranks, and the courts, dependent on their votes, treated them with such leniency as to encourage lawlessness. Their vote selected public officials, and while this had small effect upon the economic situation, it had great effect upon their personal treatment and the deference shown them. White schoolhouses were the best in the community, and conspicuously placed, and they cost anywhere from twice to ten times as much per capita as the colored schools. The newspapers specialized on news that flattered the poor whites and almost utterly ignored the Negro except in crime and ridicule.[10]

            This idea has been applied to racial tension within the organized labor movement, particularly in the United States. In this view, bosses have been able to stratify workers (without paying them more money) by encouraging white workers to consider themselves superior.[31]

            This is also the basis of poor whites being conditioned to continually vote against their own self interest...

            Fear doesn't just breed incomprehension. It also breeds a spiteful, resentful hate of anyone and everyone who is in any way different from you.

            by awesumtenor on Tue Apr 23, 2013 at 01:11:13 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

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