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View Diary: Best Creationism come-back ever? (199 comments)

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  •  Akhenaten - Amen-Hotep IV (1+ / 0-)
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    was a Pharaoh of the Eighteenth dynasty of Egypt who ruled for 17 years and died perhaps in 1336 BC or 1334 BC. He is especially noted for abandoning traditional Egyptian polytheism and introducing worship centered on the Aten, which is sometimes described as monotheistic or henotheistic

    Akhenaten appears in history almost two centuries prior to the first archaeological and written evidence for Judaism and Israelite culture is found in the Levant.

    This Amarna Period is also associated with a serious outbreak of a pandemic, possibly the plague, or polio, or perhaps the world's first recorded outbreak of influenza,[citation needed] which came from Egypt and spread throughout the Middle East, killing Suppiluliuma I, the Hittite King. Influenza is a disease associated with the close proximity of water fowl, pigs and humans, and its origin as a pandemic disease may be due to the development of agricultural systems that allow the mixing of these animals and their wastes

    The idea of Akhenaten as the pioneer of a monotheistic religion that later became Judaism has been considered by various scholars.  One of the first to mention this was Sigmund Freud, the founder of psychoanalysis, in his book Moses and Monotheism.[65] Freud argued that Moses had been an Atenist priest forced to leave Egypt with his followers after Akhenaten's death.

    •  Moses is born at the start of the 18th Dynasty (1+ / 0-)
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      Akhenaten comes along at its end when Moses is 80.

      Its often been proposed that Moses might have been born as the story tells it at the start of a new dynasty when war threatened and the Pharoah knew Joseph not.

      After Kamose of the 17th dynasty becomes Ahmose of the 18th following the expulsion of the Hyksos, there was considerable disruption in Egypt and much of the dynasty is spent putting down insurgencies of bandits and the revolts of displaced agricultural workers in Canaan.

      This is the period when Hatshepset builds a fleet in the Red Sea to facilitate trade between the suppliers of the raw materials needed in the mortuary trade of Karnak frankincense and Myhr from Punt and Ophir, bitumen and natron from the Dead Sea coming from Elat at the head of the gulf of Aqaba to Thebes port of Elim.

      The Hyksos had become wealthy and powerful by constituting the professional classes doctors, lawyers, diplomats, skilled craftsment, and merchant princes that operated the emporia where foreign merchants were allowed to operate and maintained armies of mercenaries to keep order for them where they did business thus ruling in Egypts delta and in its province of Canaan and at its mines and foreign possessions as kings.

      One can imagine their taking the opportunity presented by a copper boom in the Arabah during the foreign disruptions of the reign of Akhenaten as a good excuse to up and leave.

      The Aten was celebrated by Akhenaten as the luminous horizon of the sun.

      The son of the aten or sa aten would have been Tutankhaten. After the death of Ankhen aten and the overthrown of everything to do with his monotheistic rejection of the priests of Thebes Tutankhaten was later renamed Tutankhamun

      Live Free or Die --- Investigate, Incarcerate

      by rktect on Wed Apr 24, 2013 at 08:03:59 AM PDT

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      •  interesting (0+ / 0-)

        lots of info there.  not sure how it relates, source for the date of the birth of moses?  

        I thought there wasn't a definitive date of the exodus.  Wasn't the pharaoh of exodus never identified?

        what was the role of the phonecians during this time? were they already mining tin in Britannia?

        •  The dating is as given (0+ / 0-)

          He's Eighty at the time of the Exodus, he's born when as the story puts it Exodus 1:8. The Exodus is dated from the story  two ways

          1.) The Exodus occurred 480 years before the construction of Solomon's Temple, the fourth year of Solomon's reign, 967 BC so c 1447 BC with Moses born c 1527 BC and the Eighteenth Dynasty of ancient Egypt (c. 1550–c. 1292 BC)

          2.) The Israelites were in Egypt 430 years so that places Abrahams visit c 1877 BC which works with the Genesis 14 description of the political situation to about the time of Shamsi Adad and or Rim Sin.

          Then a new king, to whom Joseph meant nothing, came to power in Egypt. 9 “Look,” he said to his people, “the Israelites have become far too numerous for us. 10 Come, we must deal shrewdly with them or they will become even more numerous and, if war breaks out, will join our enemies, fight against us and leave the country.”
          The Phoenicians can't be proven to have mined tin in Britain

          Live Free or Die --- Investigate, Incarcerate

          by rktect on Wed Apr 24, 2013 at 09:25:01 AM PDT

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          •  I don't think a book (1+ / 0-)
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            that claims moses lived to 120 years old at that age is a reliable source for dating.

            There is no archeological proof that Solomon's temple ever existed.


            Tin has been produced and traded in Cornwall for over two thousand years. Trading occurred in pre history times but from this period little is known. There are legends of the Phoenicians trading with the Cornish for tin

            sorry, mined is not what I mean, I meant Traded. . .

            Michael Smith on another list reports:
             In a 1935 school textbook "Foreign Lands And Peoples" by J. Russell Smith
             (California State Series):

             "A block of tin tells a tale. A few years ago some men were digging a
             foundation for a building in a city on the south coast of England. The
             earth was very soft, so they dug down and down to find a firm
             foundation. After going down for many feet, they came to something that
             seemed like a floor of strong oak planks. It was the deck of an old
             ship. The place where the city stood had once been a harbor. The ship had
             sunk in the harbor, and the harbor had been filled by mud brought by
             streams. The men cut through the deck of the sunken ship and found that
             the ship was still loaded with blocks of tin.
             The writing on the blocks of tin in the old ship buried beneath
             the English city showed that it was a Phoenician ship......Ships sailed
             from Phoenicia to trade with many countries along the shores of the
             Mediterranean. They even went out into the Atlantic and up to England to
             get tin; this trade in tin from Britain was one of the early trades of the

            •  Purged of its religious gloss (0+ / 0-)

              the Bible has a lot of useful textual artifacts which can as Ken Kitchen describes be useful in dating. His dating is way off but his approach has some merit.

              He compares things like the sequence of blessings and curses in covenants, the price of slaves and the mention of persons places and things which act as toponyms to indicate which civilization is in place where.

              I'm not too bothered by Moses living to 80. The 40 years of wandering in the desert seems to come from not reading carefully what the story says.

              The first seven stations of the Exodus are in Egypt and after crossing the Red Sea from Thebes port of Elim the story immediately picks up at Mount Horab at the head of the gulf of Aqaba where Moses tended Jethros flocks and is reunited with him.

              The stations then walk the metes and bounds of Edom with about a one week interval and perhaps a days walk between stations going up the brook of Egypt to Gaza, back along the kings highway to Moab and then south from the Dead Sea down the Arabah past Petra (described as a cleft in the stone) back to Elat.

              As for the dates they can be converted from Solar to Lunar dates as Jewish archaeologists sometimes prefer to do and get a 19th dynasty date or allowed to be an Egyptian solar year of 365 days in which case the story works well in the way it corresponds to Egyptian campaign literature..

              For example Jerusalem is clearly derived from URU URU Salaam KI which evidences Akkadian as the lingua franca at the time of the reference; Baal Zephon mixes a reference to a western semitic god Baal with a reference to a Greek god Zephon. Pi Ha Haroth or the mouth of Hathor (Greek Philadelphia) refers to the consort of Baal and links Egyptian Hathor to Phoenician Asherah.

              The references can be further tracked through the Periplus of the Erythrian Sea to refer to the Chain of Aphrodite, a series of coastal Red Sea Oasis which served as trading ports for Thebes and are currently being excavated to document the trade across the Red Sea going back to the time of the shipwrecked sailor written in the 12th Dynasty.

              The story of the 18th Dynasty tells of the Egyptians struggling for half a millenia against the Libyans, sea peoples, Peleset, Phoenicians and Mycenean Greek pirates and traders for control of the tin  that turned the copper trade of the Chalcolithic into the Bronze age after c 2000 BC.

              By 1500 BC both Egypt and the Hittites are making campaign after campaign against the king of Kadesh and his allies the sea peoples in Canaan.

              By the time of Ankhenaten the entire region is in turmoil and the Egyptians are having to use mercenaries to man their garrisons against the bandits and rebels.

              The Periplus of the Erythrian Sea also tells about how Kadesh, Carthage, Gades, and possibly Britain have evidences of the Phoenicians and their attempts to monopolise the tin trade with an ocean empire larger than Libya and Asia combined which reaches as far east as Afghanistan and India and as far south as Punt and Ophir and lasts from about 900 to 600 BC before the Greeks and Romans begin to give them serious competition.

              Live Free or Die --- Investigate, Incarcerate

              by rktect on Wed Apr 24, 2013 at 02:39:17 PM PDT

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            •  Solomon's Temple (0+ / 0-)

              Solomon's Temple certainly existed in concept, whether or not it was ever actually built and or destroyed, the amount of interesting things written about it make references to it useful textual artifacts suitable for dating.

              For purposes of dating the Exodus the passage claiming the Exodus occurred 480 years before the Temple was begun in the fourth year of Solomon's reign refers back to Solomon whose existence may or may not be given more weight than just the Temple.

              Live Free or Die --- Investigate, Incarcerate

              by rktect on Wed Apr 24, 2013 at 02:58:17 PM PDT

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