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View Diary: Democrats, Republicans, and Zionist fanatics (82 comments)

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  •  I respectfully disagree (6+ / 0-)

    with you. While this couple may have been captured by Faux News on many issues, I do not find them to be "fanatics"  on the issue of Israel at all. They may have some skewed perceptions of what democrats and the President stand for on the issue, but their underlying opinions on peace with palestinians are not fanatical and  their view of history has just as much validity as  yours. You do not perceive  Israel as  being accomodating enough to the palestinian plight and cite illegal occupation  and illegal settlements as your factual basis. Others would point to the intransigence of the Arab world in even acknowledging the existence of Israel. Israel has made extraordinary sacrifices for peace over the years and have faced either an empty hand or a closed fist from the Arab world in response. You cite Israeli incursions into Gaza as if  Hamas never rocketed Southern Israel at all and this after Israel unilaterally pulled out of  Gaza years ago. The intifada's were undertaken  just when  there was hope for a breakthrough and Israel had agreed to  many many concessions. It was  the Palestinian Authority that said no. Yet you believe the fault is all with Israel.

    I do not want to get into a debate about the relative positions of  each side, I just  conclude that to call these people fanatics on the issue of of Israel does them a disservice as well as you for labeling them as such.

    •  The fanaticism was in her eyes (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ChadmanFL, ichibon

      and in her absolutely closed mind throughout the discussion.  There's no doubt in my mind.

      When the union's inspiration /Through the workers' blood shall run /There can be no power greater /Anywhere beneath the sun /Solidarity Forever!

      by litho on Thu Apr 25, 2013 at 07:10:20 AM PDT

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      •  She probably thought the same of you. nt (7+ / 0-)
        •  She may have (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          poco, ChadmanFL, Fire bad tree pretty

          though my conversation was peppered with phrases like "I have a different opinion" and "I see things a bit differently." One of my objectives, in fact, was to fairly represent my candidate, whose position on the issues is very pro-Israel, without abandoning my own more critical perspective.  Her conversation, however, was full of absolutes like "the PLO has no interest in peace" and "Israel gives them everything they ask for and it's not enough."

          Are you suggesting there's no such thing as a Zionist fanatic?

          When the union's inspiration /Through the workers' blood shall run /There can be no power greater /Anywhere beneath the sun /Solidarity Forever!

          by litho on Thu Apr 25, 2013 at 07:32:44 AM PDT

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          •  Would you have felt (7+ / 0-)

            different if she had peppered her responses with  "WellI have a different opinion" or, "I see things from a different perspective"? My main point was not that  either you  were wrong or she was wrong, it was that I did not see any fanaticism in her position (though her understanding of your candidate's Israel position  was wrong). You were right to try and  convince  her that your candidate's  position on Israel was compatible with herrs, but her underlying convictions on the Israel question have merit even if they don't comport with your own evaluation and opinions. Markey is a good canditate and a strong supporter of Israel and deserves to win the primary with Lynch and any bozo the  other side puts up in the general.

            I think there may  be such a thing as a  Zionist fanatic,  but to me  that would be an extremist that would take a position that wants everything for nothing (i.e  no two state solution at all). This woman did NOT say that. She indicates that it is her perception that  Israel does make concessions and gets nothing in return. I am sure if there were honest  negotiations and  the PA/Hamas  not only acknowldeged Israel's  right to exist and   there were actions behind those words like changes in school curriculums, then she would be more amenable to peace. I wonder if  there was a discussion of a two state solution and what her opinion on  that was in a general sense.

            •  Yes, I would have felt different (5+ / 0-)

              and I'm certain if she could have expressed herself in that way she (and her husband) would not have abandoned the Democratic Party twenty years ago in the mistaken belief that the Oslo Accords represented a "sell out" of Israel.

              You have to look at who these people actually are, and what they actually believe.  The data is there in the diary.  They're not just ardent supporters of Israel.  They are willing to abandon all progressive politics because of their fanatical support of  Israel.

              When the union's inspiration /Through the workers' blood shall run /There can be no power greater /Anywhere beneath the sun /Solidarity Forever!

              by litho on Thu Apr 25, 2013 at 08:00:39 AM PDT

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              •  I don't see a (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Bozmo2, JNEREBEL, MBNYC, zemblan

                corelation between their position on Israel and their succumbing to the relentless tide of coservative dreck coming from not only Faux News but  major parts of  the Mainstream media. I think you have made a subjective leap that it was their Israel position that  caused them to  go to the dark side. But, millions of Americans feel that way about Israel, including to a mjor extent . . . .me, however, that has not forced the vast majority to abandon their  progressive positions on other issues such as taxes, guns, the environment, and the economy. There are probably  many reasons  why  this couple got captured by the right and while the propaganda regarding the democrats so called abandonment of Israel may be a small part of it, I don't believe for a second that it was the moving and only force.

                •  No, it is not a subjective leap (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  ChadmanFL, Brecht, poco

                  to quote people's words.  They told me in as many words that they left the Democratic Party over the Israel issue and that over time, after having already begun to vote Republican because of Israel, they came to adopt the Republican positions on other issues as correct ones.  When I tried to have a conversation with them about other Democratic positions, such as the deficit or health care, they brought the conversation back to Israel.

                  What you seem to willfully misunderstand is that these people are not run-of-the-mill pro-Israel American Jews.  They are anti-Palestinian fanatics.

                  Now, unless you want to deny such a category of person actually exists, it might be a good idea for you to accept the possibility I in fact met two of them while canvassing for a Democratic senatorial candidate...

                  When the union's inspiration /Through the workers' blood shall run /There can be no power greater /Anywhere beneath the sun /Solidarity Forever!

                  by litho on Thu Apr 25, 2013 at 10:37:12 AM PDT

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                  •  I think you may (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    JNEREBEL, zemblan

                    be confusing anti-palestinian sentiments with the more prevalent  anti-muslim feelings on the right that are trumpeted  by Faux News and  probably are poisoning this couples' minds. Moreover  as I recall you canvassed  directly after the Boston Marathon bombing was resolved and that probably exacerbated their feelings with regard to muslims that they transposed onto the Israel-Palestine conflict. As I said previously, it is almost impossible to actually know what it is that moves people in their opinions. Nothing in your original diary led me to  believe that these people were anti-palestinian, they merely  seemed to believe that the palestinians did not actually want peace. That remains a mainstream American Jerwish view that can be held without being a fanatic anti-palestinian. Not believing there is a partner for peace on the other side  does not  make one anti  the other side. Would you consider yourself a fanatic anti republican because  the republicans have shown they  will not compromise on any issues no matter what. If tomorrow the republicans came out  for  more revenue  in conjunction with  spending  cuts that showed they were willing to compromise, would  you not take them up on it?

                    •  Man, you have serious issues (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:

                      either with projection or reading comprehension!

                      I quoted their words.  They told me they left the Democratic Party twenty years ago, because of the Oslo Accords.

                      Neither one of them talked about "Muslims."  Both of them talked about Israel, and the wife talked about the "PLO."

                      You may not realize this, but the PLO -- when it was the leading force of the Palestinian nationalist movement -- never identified itself as Islamic.  How could it?  If Fatah is secular and major component organizations like the PFLP and DFLP are Marxist and formally atheist?  Religiously Christian Palestinians also found a place for themselves in the PLO, as they have as well in the PNA.

                      In fact, it was the aggressively secular nature of the PLO that contributed to the rise of Hamas and a more Islamist wing of the Palestinian movement.

                      You're making an awful lot of assumptions about these people, whom you have not met, because apparently you want to deny the reality of anti-Palestinian fanaticism.  Ok.  Have fun.  But I was at the door.  I looked in her eyes.  I heard their words.

                      They're fanatics.

                      When the union's inspiration /Through the workers' blood shall run /There can be no power greater /Anywhere beneath the sun /Solidarity Forever!

                      by litho on Thu Apr 25, 2013 at 03:52:50 PM PDT

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                      •  "I quoted their words." (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:

                        Maybe even correctly. But - oh boy - their eyes! Their eyes were so fanatic! That was your spin.

                      •  You also see (0+ / 0-)

                        what you want to see! You also are ascribing emotions and  thoughts of these people, that may or may not be true. What happened 20 years ago during Oslo may have been a  catalyst, but we haven;t  lived in a vacuum since then. I will admit, I wasn't all that pleased with the Oslo accords either as I thought that they were too  lenient on concessions by the palestinians and asked too much of the Israelis. That is my opinion and one shared by many jewish americans as well. Does that make me an anti-palestinian fanatic? I think not. I do ascribe to a 2 state solution. If you do not see  their opinions as valid on the I/P issue, whether you think them right or wrong, I question your objectivity. While they may use different terms then you such as the outdated PLO  as  opposed to the Palestinian Authority, I stand by my  statements, the  whether they say it or not, if they  have been captured by the FauxNews universe They will conflate the muslim/islam issue with the I/P issue and their emotions were surely inflamed in the aftermath of  the Marathon Bombing.

          •  I might suggest that (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Kane in CA, leftynyc, Mannie, JNEREBEL, ubertar

            when Israel offered 95% of everything the "palestinians" asked for, the offer was rejected pretty much indicated the Palestinian position on "peace." Because we all know that only by giving away 100% of whatever the Palestinians demand is Israel showing real honesty and a desire for peace. That's how negotiating works, right? One side gives up everything and the other walks away with the whole pie.

            Why is Israel the only nation in the history of the Earth that always has to be the ONLY entity that has to give up everything in order to be considered and "honest" broker?

            Google "Palestinians reject peace accord." Let's see, 1993, 2001, 2008, 2010. It seems pretty much every offer of peace ever made has been rejected by the Palestinians. And the rockets keep flying across the border. Good thing all those terrorist rocket attacks are 100% legal because otherwise Israel wouldn't be the only one doing anything "illegal" over there.

      •  In her eyes? (7+ / 0-)

        Wow, you are SO perceptive to be able to spot zionist fanatics by the look in their eyes. What''s your range on that? Just a few feet or can you do it from a distance?

        No doubt you would feel right at home with George Bush just "knowing" Vladimir Putin was a "straightforward and trustworthy" man by the look in his eyes.

      •  Absurd (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JNEREBEL, zemblan

        Eyes are not windows into sanity. They are eyeballs. Anything else you see is your own interpretation. As for being "closed minded," just because she didn't agree with you, well, you've been getting into tit-for-tats with people here for years in the I/P issue, and your mind hasn't changed. Ads you closed minded, or just supremely confident you're always right?

        Done with politics for the night? Have a nice glass of wine with Palate Press: The online wine magazine.

        by dhonig on Thu Apr 25, 2013 at 03:04:58 PM PDT

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        •  Coming from a model of open-mindedness (0+ / 0-)

          and honest debate on the Israel issue, such as one like yourself, I'll afford your comment the credit it is due.

          When the union's inspiration /Through the workers' blood shall run /There can be no power greater /Anywhere beneath the sun /Solidarity Forever!

          by litho on Thu Apr 25, 2013 at 03:55:25 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

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