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View Diary: Why the NRA Really Hates Background Checks (230 comments)

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  •  By threatening to ban guns. (0+ / 0-)

    And no, I don't work for the NRA. Nor am I a member.

    Not that I'm not flattered.

    Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

    by FrankRose on Thu Apr 25, 2013 at 10:33:03 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  But, Frank, gun sales went up when Obama... (6+ / 0-)

      ... was elected. And you blame increased gun sales on Obama.

      Calling other DKos members "weenies" is a personal insult and therefore against site rules.

      by Bob Johnson on Thu Apr 25, 2013 at 10:40:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I was referring to the last (and by far larger) (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        deedogg, noway2

        increase in gun sales.

        The increase directly after his election was because, in light of his history on gun control in Illinois, they thought Obama would push for gun control, including banning.
        I disagreed. Told people that thought Obama would pursue gun control that they were wrong.

        They weren't.

        Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

        by FrankRose on Thu Apr 25, 2013 at 10:46:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Frank, when you write that Wayne LaPierre is less (8+ / 0-)

          ... of a reason for increased gun sales than the president, then you may want to rethink if you belong here.

          The Tea Party has blogs, too!

          Calling other DKos members "weenies" is a personal insult and therefore against site rules.

          by Bob Johnson on Thu Apr 25, 2013 at 10:49:42 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  When I write that, I am being accurate. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Very Long Range

            Largest increase in gun sales happened after Obama proposed banning guns.

            LaPierre has never managed to increase gun sales like a threatened banning did.

            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

            by FrankRose on Thu Apr 25, 2013 at 10:57:49 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  When did Obama propose banning guns? (5+ / 0-)

              It's pretty clear that if the thought of Obama banning guns causes purchases, and someone lies and days Obama wants to ban guns, then it's the liar who is to blame.  

              That's not even "gun control". It's more like "massacre control".

              by Inland on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 05:05:54 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  When he proposed the AWB (0+ / 0-)

                The 'B' part in particular.

                Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                by FrankRose on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 05:10:32 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  oh, ban a type of gun. Golly. (6+ / 0-)

                  The way you phrased it made it seem like Obama was trying to ban all guns.  I'm sure you didn't mean to mislead.  Because that sort of sloppy phrasing would scare people and make them panic purchase guns, and nobody wants that. Right?

                  BTW.  Look at who proposed the AWB ban.  Not Obama.  Huh.  Funny how the black guy is blamed for everything.

                  That's not even "gun control". It's more like "massacre control".

                  by Inland on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 05:19:18 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Nothing sloppy about the way I phrased it. (0+ / 0-)

                    And Obama did propose an AWB.
                    "Obama Calls for Assault Weapons Ban, background checks"--USAToday 1/16/13

                    Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                    by FrankRose on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 05:37:51 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Oh, I know it's on purpose. (7+ / 0-)

                      I'm not an idiot, so the necessity to phrase it that way is apparent.  Saying that Diane Feinstein is proposing to halt sales of a a kind of gun doesn't scare up panic. Saying the black guy is banning all guns does.  So you get as close to the latter as you can.  And by "you" I mean the NRA, because that's where you get all your rhetoric.  In a VERY grassroots way, you repeat the exact words.

                      That's not even "gun control". It's more like "massacre control".

                      by Inland on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 05:46:31 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Any ban drums up sales. (0+ / 0-)

                        And Obama did propose a ban. I even gave you a news story to educate you.

                        Strange that you don't think that Obama isn't the leader of his party. Why do you think so little of him?

                        Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                        by FrankRose on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 06:05:50 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  So does the election of a scary black man. (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          tytalus, poco

                          As was noted to you before.

                          Seems to me that the common thread is people who are fearmongering for their own purpose.  There's a reason why you and the RKBA types on daily kos throw around terms that implicitly or explicitly play into people's fears that Obama's going to take your guns; the false statements are carefully crafted to be regurgitated by th people who ate them up with a spoon.

                           Strange that you don't think that Obama isn't the leader of his party. Why do you think so little of him?
                          I don't think he'll take it personally; the people who think Obama is supremely powerful are mostly those in the grips of the right wing fever dream about black helicopters and stockpiling to shoot cops.

                          That's not even "gun control". It's more like "massacre control".

                          by Inland on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 07:44:40 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  How does race play into it? (0+ / 0-)

                            Obama proposed a ban; gun sales shot way up.
                            It looks to me (and by any reasonable person) that it was the threatened ban that drove sales.

                            "fearmongering"
                            How so? It isn't me whom is insisting on banning an object (an object used in less than half the murders that bare hands are).

                            "play into people's fears that Obama's going to take your guns."
                            I never said that. I said "ban guns", which is exactly what the 'assault weapons ban' is designed to do. Hence the word 'ban'. There is nothing false in that statement. The name of the bill says it all, no 'crafting' required on my part.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 07:58:11 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Obama elected, gun sales shot up. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            poco

                            I think, as a person who is closer to those who are purchasing the guns, could tell me how race plays into it.   It can't be a gun ban, unless someone was telling people what Obama would ban guns, even though he had shown no interest in guns whatsoever...besides allowing them in national parks....before the Sandy Hook massacre.

                            So you tell me what people in your neck of the woods were being told.  Either way, it's the fearmongering I was speaking of.

                            "play into people's fears that Obama's going to take your guns."
                             I never said that. I said "ban guns",
                            There IS something false in your statement: it's a false implication that would fool a weakminded individual who isn't around someone who clarifies it for you.

                            I don't expect you to change: the confusion is purposefully meant to fearmonger.

                            That's not even "gun control". It's more like "massacre control".

                            by Inland on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 08:08:33 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Obama pushed for gun control while in Illinois (0+ / 0-)

                            Thus, he had shown interest in gun control.

                            I didn't think that he would push for gun control as Pres. I told people that thought Obama would push for gun control that they were wrong.
                            They weren't.

                            Again 'assault weapons ban'. It is telling that you are unable to concede exactly what it's purpose is. Describing the purpose of a bill isn't 'fearmongering'.
                             Banning an object used in less than half the murders that bare hands are is.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 08:16:53 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Was that what the NRA was saying? (0+ / 0-)

                            I think we can skip the part of it not being true, and just go straight to what people are being told.

                            Again 'assault weapons ban'. It is telling that you are unable to concede exactly what it's purpose is
                            To ban further sales.  Notably, no guns are actually banned by the AWB. So don't give me any shit about being accurate.

                            Notably, you make sure you don't say "AWB", because it's not scary enough even thought it's more accurate and easier to type than "ban guns".

                            That's not even "gun control". It's more like "massacre control".

                            by Inland on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 08:24:25 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  It is what Obama said. (0+ / 0-)

                            So why don't we NOT skip it.

                            How is banning the manufacture of a gun not a 'ban'?
                            Again, there is a reason why it is called the 'assault weapons ban.

                            There is a reason why you find simply the name of the bill & what it is designed to do so distasteful.
                            It's not my words, it is the bill itself.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 08:56:34 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Oh, the victims of fearmongering would say so. (0+ / 0-)
                            Q: Is the D.C. law prohibiting ownership of handguns consistent with an individual’s right to bear arms?
                            A: As a general principle, I believe that the Constitution confers an individual right to bear arms. But just because you have an individual right does not mean that the state or local government can’t constrain the exercise of that right, in the same way that we have a right to private property but local governments can establish zoning ordinances that determine how you can use it.
                            Of course, someone who has been softened up by fearmongering, there's all sorts of alarm bells going off.  Because there's plenty of people, including you, who are equating any gun control with a gun ban.  For example"
                            How is banning the manufacture of a gun not a 'ban'?
                            It's not a "gun ban" because nobody's gun is banned or taken; all the guns in existence continue to be in existence, in use, legally.  I still have conventional light bulbs and Freon, because they aren't banned.

                            But for you, a statement like "Nobody is trying to take your guns away" isn't very scary.  "Nobody is going to be able to buy these guns in the future" isn't very scary.  "Obama's banning guns" is scary.

                             

                            That's not even "gun control". It's more like "massacre control".

                            by Inland on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 09:09:20 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Yes, however could Obama's votes to ban guns (0+ / 0-)

                            lead people to think that he would try to....ya know.....ban guns.

                            I assume that in light of hard evidence that Obama did vote for gun bans, you now understand the small uptick in gun purchases after he was first elected....and, of course the huge uptick in gun purchases after he specifically proposed the AWB.

                            I'm glad I could help, however may I suggest that you use Google before wrongly accusing someone of saying something untrue?

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 09:23:26 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  There were Obama votes to ban guns. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            coquiero, poco

                            But someone posting it as if it were true might...ya know...make someone think otherwise.  Particularly if you had softened them up by feeding them scary stuff.

                            Here's Obama's vote, from your link:

                            Obama voted for a bill in the Illinois senate that allowed retired law enforcement officers to carry concealed weapons
                            But then again, you're still not acknowledging that the Assault Weapons Ban wouldn't take away anyone's guns, either, and we all know why:  it's not scary so you aren't interested.  Anything that pulls a thread on the sweater of fear and ignorance knitted by the NRA has to be avoided.

                            That's not even "gun control". It's more like "massacre control".

                            by Inland on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 09:39:22 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Did you miss the part of the link where Obama (0+ / 0-)

                            said that he would support legislation to ban the manufacture, sale & possession of handguns?
                            Don't worry I can post it again.

                            I never said that the assault weapons ban would lead to confiscation.

                            "ignorance"
                            So says somebody whom just learned of Obama's gun control history (after, so confidently, calling it 'untrue').
                            Irony.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 09:48:13 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  So you didn't mean "vote". (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            coquiero, poco

                            Can I ask how the discussions go where your word choice isnt challenged?  Because I'm convinced that the point is to confirm the fears of simpletons.

                            That's not even "gun control". It's more like "massacre control".

                            by Inland on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 10:38:01 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Oh. Only votes....not reasonable causes to believe (0+ / 0-)

                            Obama would ban guns (which was the entire basis of this discussion)

                            I can do that for you

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 11:57:33 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Now, when you say "ban guns", do you mean (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            coquiero, poco

                            ban SOME guns, like automatic weapons?  Or ban the sale of some guns?  Or confiscate guns?

                            Because unlike people who are willing to assume the worst because they're fed constant streams of guff, I need to find out just how thin you intend to slice your baloney.  

                            Why is that important?  Because you're not going to succeed in getting most people outraged by the AWB or expanded background checks.  People have heard all the arguments and are either supportive or overwhelmingly supportive of the proposals actually made.

                            You have to set up a strawman to scare people and get them to buy more guns, either in fear of confiscation or the ultimate bullshit of defending against tyranny.

                            Whenever you're trying to do something the NRA doesn't do, so that you can have some support for your faux outrage at a question of whether you're a member or help it out, feel free to mark it for us.

                            That's not even "gun control". It's more like "massacre control".

                            by Inland on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 12:22:37 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Automatic weapons are already highly regulated (0+ / 0-)

                            and isn't covered by the AWB.

                            By 'ban guns' I mean 'ban guns'. This is exactly what the AWB does, it even says so in its name.
                            As much as you want to 'poo-poo' deciding what liberties other Americans can have, your fear of an object doesn't surpass their liberty.

                            Your shameless distrust of your fellow citizens & paranoia of their liberties has already failed. Spectacularly. Again.

                            Now all that remains is the election.
                            And the results will belong to you & your fellow gun controllers.
                            It's all yours.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 05:12:29 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Just as much as the ban on automatics "bans guns" (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            coquiero, TheFern

                            Now, when you say "poo pooing liberty" are you including the liberty to have automatics, or are you also in favor of banning guns?   Either you're a nut, or you can give the rhetoric a rest.

                            As for my trust of citizens, ninety per cent want an increase in background checks.  And a majority of NRA members. Their judgment seems sound and your rhetoric does not.

                            That's not even "gun control". It's more like "massacre control".

                            by Inland on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 05:35:23 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Oh yeah....obviously 90% supported the B/C plan. (0+ / 0-)

                            Just look at how well it worked out.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 05:56:28 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  More than half of the senators supported it. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            coquiero, TheFern

                            So if you want to pretend that "only" more than half of the citizens support it, fine.  It hardly matters, since in any case, your rhetoric about "trusting citizens" is in the trash along with your "gun ban" talk.   Your sloganeering is weak, your rhetoric transparent.  

                            Again, what happens when the room is just you gun people and nobody is around to call bullshit?  I get a clue from the way the RKBA people, the NRA and their allies talk, in slogans and hyperbole, no matter what is said here, but I tell me just how bad it gets?  Do people actually believe the NRA is a grassroots organization, for example, or do you all know it's BS?

                            That's not even "gun control". It's more like "massacre control".

                            by Inland on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 06:27:26 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Why else would you want the AWB? (0+ / 0-)

                            They are used in less than half the murders than bare hands are.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 06:31:20 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  More fearmongering. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            coquiero

                            You know why, but you can't just disagree.  You've got to assert that nothing but gun grabbing motivates people and all their reasons are lies.  You're hawking NRA goods but nobody is buying.

                            That's not even "gun control". It's more like "massacre control".

                            by Inland on Sat Apr 27, 2013 at 04:34:20 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  How is asking you why you want the AWB (0+ / 0-)

                            'fearmongering'?
                            How is pointing out that bare hands are used in over twice the number of murders than all rifles combined are an example of 'fearmongering'?

                            Your insistence on taking liberties from innocent Americans, and banning objects is based entirely upon fearmongering.
                            I understand that you think those guns look 'scary', but your fears don't surpass other people's liberties.

                            "nobody is buying"
                            For an example of 'nobody buying', just take a gander at the AWB's derp-filled failures, both practically and politically.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Sat Apr 27, 2013 at 10:50:59 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Meant "not" votes to ban guns. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            coquiero

                            That's not even "gun control". It's more like "massacre control".

                            by Inland on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 09:40:54 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  What gun control did Obama push in Illinois? (0+ / 0-)

                            Calling other DKos members "weenies" is a personal insult and therefore against site rules.

                            by Bob Johnson on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 09:16:46 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Click on the (0+ / 0-)

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 10:00:15 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Push? (0+ / 0-)

                            He didn't push anything. He was asked what he supported and what he did not support.

                            You're full of crap, as usual.

                            Calling other DKos members "weenies" is a personal insult and therefore against site rules.

                            by Bob Johnson on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 10:05:42 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  "pushed" is scarier. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            coquiero

                            I don't think he can panic the herd by saying "Obama if nothing to promote gun control".

                            That's not even "gun control". It's more like "massacre control".

                            by Inland on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 10:51:07 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Oh...so the reason for a spike in gun purchases (0+ / 0-)

                            after Obama's election wasn't because of...
                            Obama saying, in writing, that he supported state legislation to:
                            ban the manufacture, sale and possession of handguns
                            and ban assault weapons.

                            Nor was it for hissupport of banning the sale or transfer of all forms of semi-automatic firearms, increasing state restrictions on the purchase and possession of firearms and requiring manufacturers to provide child-safety locks with firearms, while he was a state senator in Illinois.

                            Nor was  it while he was in the U.S. Senate,  when he supported the re-authorization of the Federal Assault Weapons Ban & voted against legislation protecting firearm manufacturers from liability suits.

                            And, of course, ignoring the fact that people that bought guns were flat-out correct that Obama would try to push to ban guns & the far larger spike after he did try to push for the AWB...

                            The real reason for the spike in gun sales after his election--based upon the impeccable credibility of your clairvoyance is.....because he's black.

                            Top notch argument, Bob.
                            Hats off to you.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 04:57:28 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                  •  Don't forget that (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    FrankRose

                    especially in places like this site, there was a lot of talk of desire to ban all semiautomatics.  Of course this opens the door to the whole, you need to know what the hell your talking about in order to be taken seriously when pushing for legislation.  In this case, lack of understanding, or even willingness to care to understand, about the differences between semi and fully automatic exacerbated the problem.

                    This was also an issue during the press conference when Obama made the slip (?) of referring to fully automatic weapons as semiautomatic.

                    This isn't a race issue and shouldn't be made into one.

                    •  "Exacerbated the problem"? (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      sanghoee, coquiero, poco

                      What is it that you see as a problem?  

                      Most people think that tens of thousands of gun deaths are a problem.  Not what someone says on daily kos, not the lack of expertise on gun esoterica.  

                      That's not even "gun control". It's more like "massacre control".

                      by Inland on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 08:29:32 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I see the lack of real discourse leading towards (0+ / 0-)

                        real solutions as the problem. The behavior of the anti-gun crowd most certainly contributed to this; hence exacerbating the problem.

                        •  No. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          coquiero

                          There's a never ending font of bullshit in support of guns that can't be stemmed by mere discussion  Discourse isn't aided by people like Frank Rose working diligently to at least mislead in the hopes of scaring the impressionable, and at the end of the day, the lobbyists buy the senate in a big FU to the opinions of ninety percent of us.  So no, I think I know who is responsible for hard feelings.

                          That's not even "gun control". It's more like "massacre control".

                          by Inland on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 10:59:04 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                    •  "Willingness to care"??? (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      coquiero

                      Where was the NRA's willingness to care when it responded to the tragedy in Newtown with basically a corporate press release - that in itself was a complete lie since they never did anything to help curb the problem?  What's shocking to me is how those who support gun rights have almost zero concern for the victims of gun violence.  Anyone for whom the second amendment is more important than human life is insane...

                      •  We simply don't think that taking liberties (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        noway2

                        from innocent Americans is the right answer.

                        But have it your way:
                        Did you support warrantless wiretaps, or was the fourth amendment more important than human lives?

                        Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                        by FrankRose on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 10:16:44 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

      •  And then they went up when Clinton won too (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        FrankRose

        The concern is about D's pushing gun control.  Obviously some less than scrupulous individuals are willing to use these fears, even fan them, in order to bolster their profit margins. However, it certainly doesn't help when things like bans are proposed.

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