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View Diary: Fundies, I get it, I really do, but grow up (227 comments)

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  •  I agree with VClib (1+ / 0-)
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    VClib

    the problem with the "hate speech" thing is defining "hate speech."  Most often, it is defined by the group in power as "derogatory speech directed to people or principles we think are important or good."   For example, suppose we are talking about  fundamentalist Christian or Catholic have certain religious beliefs on marriage (such as "I believe same-sex marriage is sinful and an abomination in the eyes of God").  Does calling them "bigots" for their religious views constitute "hate speech"?  I suspect fundamentalist Christians and Catholics would say yes, but those who support same-sex marriage would say no.  "Hate speech" is too often subjective, and colored by your values.  The importance of the First Amendment is that it doesn't allow government to distinguish among speech based on the values of those who are in government positions.  

    That's why I believe that, absent speech that constitutes an incitement of an imminent threat of unlawful conduct, there's very little in the way of speech that can be banned.  Even the speech of the Westboro Baptist Church, which I believe is about as "hateful" as you can get, can't be banned, but can be regulated as part of content-neutral time place and manner regulations (for example, no first amendment activities, regardless of content, within so many feet of a funeral).  And the best way to deal that hate speech is "more speech" - counter protesters blocking them from the sight of the funerals they are protesting.

    •  Well I agree with that. I know a journalist who (1+ / 0-)
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      andalusi

      is one of the most liberal people among my acquaintances, but he has emphatically said on more than one occasion that he unequivocally supports the Nazis marching in Skokie or Westboro trying to picket anywhere they damn please, because of their first amendment rights to do so.  And he's right.

      That's one more thing to add to my long list of small problems. --my son, age 10

      by concernedamerican on Sat Apr 27, 2013 at 03:33:30 PM PDT

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      •  I fully supported the right of the Nazis (0+ / 0-)

        to march in Skokie. Did then, do now. But Skokie is a municipality, and the march was on public streets. I see a clear distinction between that forum and a university campus. Just as it's often said that the First Amendment does not apply here on dailykos.com, it may be that a university, too, has some ability -- if not an obligation -- to establish rules regarding content.

        Here's one example: Suppose a biology professor turns out to be a creationist, and starts teaching creationism in the classroom. The university fires him. Does the professor have any grounds to sue based on First Amendment rights? Why or why not?

        May the university establish restrictions on speech within the classroom? If so, why may it not do so outside of the classroom?

        Let us all have the strength to see the humanity in our enemies, and the courage to let them see the humanity in ourselves.

        by Nowhere Man on Sat Apr 27, 2013 at 06:46:31 PM PDT

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        •  As long as the professor was teaching and (0+ / 0-)

          Testing his students on the curriculum, and covering the required elements of the course, they likely wouldn't have much problem with anything else he said.

          Even at the college level, there are goals and outcomes that need to be taught, and if your students don't get those, there can be repercussions.

          Not for what you say or even how you say it, but because your students aren't getting the course content they need to move on.

          •  Totally agree with you. (0+ / 0-)

            The university has not only the right, but the obligation, to ensure that students are being taught properly in the classroom.

            The question is, does that right and obligation end at the classroom door?

            Let us all have the strength to see the humanity in our enemies, and the courage to let them see the humanity in ourselves.

            by Nowhere Man on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 09:26:21 AM PDT

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