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View Diary: President Obama's gift to George W. Bush (250 comments)

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  •  I agree. It should have happened ... (14+ / 0-)

    ... years ago.

    Just for he sake of argument, do you see (assuming -- counter fact -- that Obama has the will) any time or place in which even airing the truth might happen?

    Saying "this is not the time nor the place" is completely meaningless if there is never a time nor a place.

    Vote rape. Vote torture. Vote War Crimes. Vote with the American top 1%.

    by Yellow Canary on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 02:27:00 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  There will never be a time and place (14+ / 0-)

      because the time and place it SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED has already passed.

      That would have been when Mr. Obama took office in 2009. Forward, ho, suckers...

      "The “Left” is NOT divided on the need to oppose austerity and the Great Betrayal. The Third Way is not left or center or even right. It is Wall Street on the Potomac."--Bill Black

      by lunachickie on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 02:28:18 PM PDT

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      •  Umm, No. It should not have taken place when (8+ / 0-)

        Obama took office in 2009.  If the Obama administration had gone after Bush and Co. for war crimes, all hell would have broken loose and he would have been unable to accomplish anything in his first term, including Healthcare reform, and getting elected to a second term.

        The best place to judge Bush is in the court of public opinion and I think we have spoken.  Obama is a second term President, and prospects look pretty good for a Dem President in 2016.

        Thankfully, Obama had the good sense not to seek revenge.  It would have ruined his Presidency.

        History will take care of Bush.  It will not be kind.  I take satisfaction in knowing that Bush knows this too.

        In the time it took Adam Lanza to reload, eleven children escaped. What if...

        by Sixty Something on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 02:47:31 PM PDT

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        •  Why do you cast justice as revenge? (17+ / 0-)

          Your argument hinges on a weak pin.

          History will likely also judge -- taking this from your sig -- Adam Lanza poorly.  It will not be, as you say, "kind".  By your reasoning, were he alive, we should just wait for history to judge, and all have a beer.

          "History", like "God", does nothing in our world.  That's up to us.

          The "court of public opinion" has no jurisdiction either.  Again, it's up to us.  Do we prosecute criminals?

          Vote rape. Vote torture. Vote War Crimes. Vote with the American top 1%.

          by Yellow Canary on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 02:59:16 PM PDT

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          •  Justice, many times is revenge. That's why I call (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            vcmvo2

            it that, but your comparison with Obama's lack of revenge/justice to Adam Lanza is a real stretch of the imagination.  

            And yes, history will also judge Adam Lanza.  He is dead.  There is no other way to judge him.

            In the time it took Adam Lanza to reload, eleven children escaped. What if...

            by Sixty Something on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 03:07:36 PM PDT

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            •  revenge is NOT Justice, applying the Law IS (11+ / 0-)

              and it must be applied equally to keep it from being an act of revenge.

              without the ants the rainforest dies

              by aliasalias on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 03:25:02 PM PDT

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            •  Why? (10+ / 0-)
              your comparison with Obama's lack of revenge/justice to Adam Lanza is a real stretch of the imagination ... {A deliberately false paraphrasis, as you well know:  I excluded "revenge"; and your syntax makes "justice" a weak codicil.}
              A vengeful, immature bully got a bunch of weapons and killed a bunch of innocent people.

              I don't see imagination at work here.

              But my point is that it is cowardly to imagine history doing the work that citizenship and common humanity requires.  Reputation is not what's truly at stake here.  People were murdered.  Men and women were ordered by their leader to kill.  War Crimes were most certainly committed.  Those orders was based on lies.

              Vote rape. Vote torture. Vote War Crimes. Vote with the American top 1%.

              by Yellow Canary on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 03:31:35 PM PDT

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            •  When is justice revenge (8+ / 0-)

              and when is justice justice?

              Should war criminals never be held accountable? When?

              And if it did damage his presidency, would that not have been a worthwhile sacrifice?  Who would look down on him for it? Some 30% of the country who will always hate him anyway and still support Cheney?

              I disagree with you that it would have hurt his presidency and in fact I think you've got it exactly backwards.  Not holding war criminals accountable nor criminal bank executives are the kinds of things that ruin presidencies.


              "Justice is a commodity"

              by joanneleon on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 03:38:45 PM PDT

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              •  It stuns me to see the bedrock values (8+ / 0-)

                that some are willing to trade-off in the name of what I don't know.  Some things are not and can not be negotiable.  They either matter----or they don't.  And saying the rule of law doesn't always matter is really bizarre, because if it doesn't matter, then what does?!  Following the law is optional?!  Who gets to decide when a following any law is optional?  Jesus.

                "A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more." - from the prophet Jeremiah

                by 3goldens on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 03:52:05 PM PDT

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                •  3Goldens, no one, certainly me is trading off any (0+ / 0-)

                  bedrock values here.  I am not saying that they do not matter.  They do.  

                  What we are dealing with here is reality.  There are, whether we like it or not three branches of government, all with their separate, but equal ability to govern this United States of America.

                  For Obama to have pursued criminal prosecution of the Bush administration  would have opened the door to questioning whether any Executive/President, could question, or second guess the actions of another President.  Like it or not, Ford pardoned Nixon.  I dare say that had it been a Democrat doing the pardoning, the result would have been the same.  Presidents are going to be forgiven their mistakes.

                  Great leeway is given to Presidents to make these decisions.  Only a fool would have attempted to prosecute Bush, and Obama is no fool.

                  In the time it took Adam Lanza to reload, eleven children escaped. What if...

                  by Sixty Something on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 06:23:16 PM PDT

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                  •  Right now it's reality. (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    3goldens, 84thProblem, shaharazade

                    as I type this, it's reality that those people haven't been prosecuted.

                    What we are dealing with here is reality.  
                    That's about all that sentence has going for it, though...

                    "The “Left” is NOT divided on the need to oppose austerity and the Great Betrayal. The Third Way is not left or center or even right. It is Wall Street on the Potomac."--Bill Black

                    by lunachickie on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 06:56:38 PM PDT

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                  •  I can't accept what you are trying to excuse. (6+ / 0-)

                    Have you read Jane Mayer's The Dark Side?  Have you read Neil Barofsky's Bailout?  These are just two of the documentations of the acts of individuals within the Bush administration that were reprehensible and inexcusable.  Some actions are so egregious that they must be investigated formally and, if provable, prosecuted.  Further, to trivialize the deaths of American military men and women, as well as the unknown numbers of Iraqi and Afghanistan non-military human beings, as "Presidents are going to be forgiven their mistakes" confounds me.  If you believe that David Addington, John Yoo, and the other members of the Bush administration were simply making "mistakes", I have to believe you really don't grasp the magnitude of what that administration did.  

                    "A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more." - from the prophet Jeremiah

                    by 3goldens on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 06:59:49 PM PDT

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                  •  When waging a War of Aggression, and torturing ... (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    joanneleon, 3goldens, shaharazade

                    ... captives -- TORTURE, for Chissakes -- can be viewed as "mistakes", there is no possibility of morality.

                    In the time Bush took to make mistakes, a hundred thousand people went to their graves, many of them tortured and maimed.  What if ...

                    Vote rape. Vote torture. Vote War Crimes. Vote with the American top 1%.

                    by Yellow Canary on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 09:58:51 PM PDT

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              •  Shades of Gerald Ford (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                jm214, 3goldens, 84thProblem, joanneleon

                Imagine if he had allowed the criminal prosecution of Richard Nixon to proceed. That would've made this country truly great. It would've been a greater move even than George Washington stepping down after his second term.

                Government and laws are the agreement we all make to secure everyone's freedom.

                by Simplify on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 05:37:13 PM PDT

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        •  Umm, Yes. All hell would have broken loose (11+ / 0-)
          and he would have been unable to accomplish anything in his first term,
          And? You don't let criminals get away with heinous crimes because it might get in the way of other business. This country was built in part on the Rule of Law. To let this shit go unpunished makes a mockery of that law and everything it's ever stood for in the United States.

          "The “Left” is NOT divided on the need to oppose austerity and the Great Betrayal. The Third Way is not left or center or even right. It is Wall Street on the Potomac."--Bill Black

          by lunachickie on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 03:12:07 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  hey what's a bunch of war crimes compared to (7+ / 0-)

            something designed by corporate interests from the Heritage Foundation in the 90's ?

            I mean it's just a few trillion dollars spent (and counting), hundreds of thousands of lives lost, a country that was innocent of any threat to the US is bombed to rubble, torture becomes sop, warrantless wiretapping of citizens becomes widespread (remember FISA), massive tax breaks to the wealthy happen (codified by Obama), and too many more things to list.
            Not to mention too little of that has changed.

            Short story... Obama did not have to go.
            Where was the parade for other Presidential library openings in the past? Nowhere.

            without the ants the rainforest dies

            by aliasalias on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 03:48:00 PM PDT

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          •  Hey, I'm all for not letting criminals get away (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            sethtriggs, Matt Z

            with heinous crimes when it might get in the way of other business?  Humm.  What other business?  You don't say.

            But. Isn't there always a but?  You never say who you would punish for what crime, or how it would stand up in a court of law.

            You bring forth nothing more than wishful thinking.  Believe me, I sympathize, but we are going to have to get real here.   Obama saved his Presidency by not going there.  It was the correct and right thing to do, whether you or I like it or not; whether you or I would have enjoyed our jollies over watching the Bush administration get their just rewards.  Believe me, I have my fantasies too.  

            It was never going to happen, and it never should have happened.

            In the time it took Adam Lanza to reload, eleven children escaped. What if...

            by Sixty Something on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 05:41:25 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  No you're not (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              84thProblem, shaharazade

              and let's make something else real clear:

              Nobody--nobody--has to say this, in order to proffer a comment.

              You never say who you would punish for what crime, or how it would stand up in a court of law.
              What a heaping, steaming pile of hubris-strewn sophistry...

              "The “Left” is NOT divided on the need to oppose austerity and the Great Betrayal. The Third Way is not left or center or even right. It is Wall Street on the Potomac."--Bill Black

              by lunachickie on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 06:48:20 PM PDT

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        •  If the Obama administration had gone after (0+ / 0-)

          the Bush administration for war crimes, they would all have been acquitted by now. That's just the plain truth about the state of the law at present (same issue with going after the banks over the financial collapse).

    •  Maybe in some other time and place (10+ / 0-)

      but to vent frustration by claiming that President Obama should have become the very first world leader to break with standing tradition and at a ceremonial event rip into the honoree is just out of touch. It would have set back all our wonderful progressive ideas for YEARS. You think the media's against us now? I can only imagine what it would have been like if President Obama had broken not only with precedent but his well-established character and become this fictional firebrand we think ought to be in the White House. We'd be dead in the water.

      What a terrible idea.

      Jon Husted is a dick.

      by anastasia p on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 02:30:08 PM PDT

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      •  The media is against (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        3goldens

        consumers. If they were against Democrats for political decisions it would greatly accelerate healthy debate and empowerment for progressives. The truth has a liberal bias after all.

        I believed it then and and even more so now. The parties need to split. Truly split. And let the chips fall where they may. Ideas vs. ideas.

        No Jesus, Know Peace

        by plok on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 02:37:40 PM PDT

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      •  "We'd be dead in the water." (12+ / 0-)

        Civil liberties trashed.
        Whistle blowers thrown in prison.
        A bankrupting Empire out of control.
        Bankster thieves running the government.
        Growing poverty.
        Falling wages.
        The will of the people ignored.

        Never break with "tradition." Never offend the Washington Consensus.

        The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppose.
         Frederick Douglass

        •  Seriously (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          84thProblem, shaharazade

          who are these people who would bankrupt a fucking core, bedrock value for the sake of political expediency?

          That's a pretty venal concept, considering what the war crimes actually were.  

          "The “Left” is NOT divided on the need to oppose austerity and the Great Betrayal. The Third Way is not left or center or even right. It is Wall Street on the Potomac."--Bill Black

          by lunachickie on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 07:02:30 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Other countries have Truth and Reconciliation... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        84thProblem

        ...Commissions. Here, we have a President lacking both a commitment to pursuing justice as he is legally required to and a commitment to protecting war criminals and torturers. And--as we see here--not only a commitment to protecting war criminals and torturers but a willingness to praise them and burnish their reputation.

        But I get it. The victims of torture and aggressive war mean nothing. They deserve no justice; nobody should face accountability for the crimes committed against them. The reputation of Barack Obama means everything. Who should protest that he figuratively spits on their graves?

    •  Plus, it was a library opening (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      3goldens, maryabein, lunachickie

      not a funeral.  It's not an earth shattering event.  Easily excused away especially given all the things happening right now, all the problems.


      "Justice is a commodity"

      by joanneleon on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 03:35:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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