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View Diary: Austerity isn't dead... but it should be (132 comments)

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  •  Government is not a boundless cornucopia either. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sparhawk, soros

    Trying to make sure that what goes in one end of the horn of plenty is roughly equal to what comes out the other end, except in times of war or severe economic distress, would seem to be a reasonable expectation of the taxed, wouldn't it?  

    The patellar reflex is a deep tendon reflex which allows one to keep one's balance with little effort or conscious thought.

    by SpamNunn on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 08:55:38 AM PDT

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    •  No (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ozsea1, limpidglass, Eric Nelson

      That is a completely false comparison.

      "I'll believe that corporations are people when I see Rick Perry execute one."

      by bink on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 08:59:35 AM PDT

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      •  I didn't make a comparison. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sparhawk, soros

        You can't make a serious comparison of something that's real to something that's imaginary.  

        The patellar reflex is a deep tendon reflex which allows one to keep one's balance with little effort or conscious thought.

        by SpamNunn on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 09:03:26 AM PDT

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        •  And is that not a reasonable expectation, at least (0+ / 0-)

          for people who pay the taxes?

          The patellar reflex is a deep tendon reflex which allows one to keep one's balance with little effort or conscious thought.

          by SpamNunn on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 09:04:39 AM PDT

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          •  The Comparison Was to a Cornucopia (6+ / 0-)

            In the negative ...

            It's not like that.

            An economy is a system of exchange. Money is tokens that allow participants to exchange goods and services.

            We grant government a monopoly on the production of the tokens -- not just to ensure their integrity, but to ensure that the hand of democracy controls the amount of tokens in circulation. We further grant the government power to confiscate and redistribute tokens for the greater good.

            When government borrows tokens from participants in the economy, or confiscates them through taxation, it's merely playing the game of adjusting the amount of money in circulation, or redistributing it according to the aims of its policy.

            In fact, no taxation at all is really required by the government, nor borrowing. The Republican Party could have its dream -- and government could simply print all the money it needs and spend it into the economy annually.

            This, however, would make it difficult for the population to sustain the illusion that money means something in and of itself -- and would erode confidence in it as an instrument.

            This is an entirely different game than a household or business budget, which is subject to a money supply that is created and managed by a second entity.

            The project of government when managing money is not to "keep budgets under control." That is high absurdity. The project of government is to manage the size of the money supply and its distribution in such a way that benefits the largest number of people participating in the economy.

            What we have now is a concerted effort by government to create a shortage of money ... in the interest of protecting its value for the few that have much of it. A consequence of this is high unemployment and economic stagnation.

            This is directly related to -- in fact a product of -- the unwillingness of the government to either run the printing presses or sufficiently confiscate money from the horders.

            "I'll believe that corporations are people when I see Rick Perry execute one."

            by bink on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 09:14:26 AM PDT

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            •  I'm guessing you don't think it makes much (0+ / 0-)

              difference whose hand is on the throttle of the mighty machine that controls the flow of tokens, then.  

              We might agree more than I first suspected.  

              The patellar reflex is a deep tendon reflex which allows one to keep one's balance with little effort or conscious thought.

              by SpamNunn on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 09:19:57 AM PDT

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              •  I Guess I Believe It Matters (6+ / 0-)

                Since, in a democracy, the people are supposed to have their hands on the throttle and, implicitly, the beneficiaries are supposed to be the largest number among them.

                Our constitution speaks of "general welfare" not "private gain."

                "I'll believe that corporations are people when I see Rick Perry execute one."

                by bink on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 09:21:53 AM PDT

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              •  I'm guessing you don't know jack (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Auburn Parks, tardis10, emal

                about sovereign currency and MMT, do you?

                Yes, deficits do matter; there, I've said it.

                But nowhere near to the extent that you and your fellow (redacted) Sparrowhawk imagine it is......

                The "extreme wing" of the Democratic Party is the wing that is hell-bent on protecting the banks and credit card companies. ~ Kos

                by ozsea1 on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 10:21:18 AM PDT

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                •  Sovereign currency and Modern Monetary Theory.... (0+ / 0-)

                  ...are fraud and hucksterism dressed up as legit economic theories.

                  All that matters is: what physical good or service do you produce? Is the rest if the world willing to pay the price you charge?

                  Money is just a way of keeping score. The real value is the goods and services being transacted. You have to provide real value of goods and services in exchange for whatever you import. A budget deficit means you aren't doing that. To fix the problem you either have to produce more real stuff or cut your imports.

                  (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
                  Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

                  by Sparhawk on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 11:32:45 AM PDT

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                  •  were it as simple as you assert it is.... (0+ / 0-)

                    but's it's not, and your economic thinking just can't handle the historical reality.

                    Ask yourself this, if you want to learn, instead of offering your brand of "fraud and hucksterism dressed up as legit economic theories."

                    How are public debt and private assets connected? Hint: double entry accounting.

                    Why is the trade deficit important to public debt of which you are so obsessed? Same hint.

                    Decoupling our sovereign currency from the gold standard changed the game so that the rightwing/libertarian meme of comparing the federal budget to a household budget is invalidated. Explain. Show your work.

                    Finally, our buddy and pal (The) Dick Cheney simply stated - for simple minds - that deficits don't matter.

                    Likely he knew things that you clearly do not.

                    The "extreme wing" of the Democratic Party is the wing that is hell-bent on protecting the banks and credit card companies. ~ Kos

                    by ozsea1 on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 12:23:45 PM PDT

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            •  Hey Bink, I really like your description (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              bink, 3goldens, ozsea1

              you do a really a good job of laying it out here.  

              "The Earth is my country and Science my religion" Christiaan Huygens

              by Auburn Parks on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 10:38:54 AM PDT

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    •  What's changed isn't just the tax rate. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tardis10, eps62, lostinamerica, ozsea1

      It's what the wealthy have allowed to declare as their fare share of the profits in the first place. Take the exorbitant increase of that and then sharp reduction of taxes, and you have a marketplace designed to fail. Not to mention a broad range of inflamed social ills.

      The rich operate as if they are islands and the Second Law of Thermodynamics does not exist. And their supporters are equally blind.

      Frankly, I'd rather take down Exxon or Goldman Sachs, the way we're taking down RushBeckistan, than elect another "better" Democrat who's going to wind up singing for the bankster choir.

      by Words In Action on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 09:04:19 AM PDT

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    •  Severe economic distress (4+ / 0-)

      We're having that now.

      Some of the long-term unemployed may never be able to get back in the job market.

      Freedom isn't free. Patriots pay taxes.

      by Dogs are fuzzy on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 09:36:09 AM PDT

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      •  Many will not. And most of the long-term (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ozsea1, 3goldens

        unemployed who do re-enter the market will do so for permanently reduced earnings.

        The destructiveness of austerity the financial collapse, the immediate failure to deal with it alone will last a generation or more. Adding austerity simply extend the destruction further in time and space.

        Frankly, I'd rather take down Exxon or Goldman Sachs, the way we're taking down RushBeckistan, than elect another "better" Democrat who's going to wind up singing for the bankster choir.

        by Words In Action on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 09:41:51 AM PDT

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