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View Diary: Krugman: "Bush lied us into war." (231 comments)

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  •  And let's remember another thing: Obama (13+ / 0-)

    ended the Iraq war, and is ending the Afghan war. I just want to say that before people fly off the handle and claim he's no different than Bush because he attended the Bush library groundbreaking.

    •  Time to fry bigger fish... (5+ / 0-)

      like Iran.

      The banks have a stranglehold on the political process. Mike Whitney

      by dfarrah on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 11:22:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Bush signed the Status of Forces Agreement with (16+ / 0-)

      Iraq, in 2008, mandating US troop withdrawal. If Bush had been elected for a third term, he would have been forced to withdraw troops, because that was the agreement we had.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/...

      Afghanistan has gone several years past the point where there was any sense in being there; we "surged" our troops there in 2010 through 2012. Although 2014 is the target date for removing our troops there, Pentagon chiefs are pushing to extend that. We'll see if we're really out in 2014.

      In the meantime, we've increased bombing in Pakistan, by a lot, which is a factor in Pakistanis regarding the US as a greater threat to them than long-time enemy, India.

      And while we've withdrawn troops, as the public is sick of it, we've increased the number of nations in which we bomb with drones. Expanding the war, though not the number of people conducting it.

      The War Formerly Known As On Terror continues unabated; in fact, has expanded.


      Actual Democrats is the surest, quickest. route to More Democrats

      by Jim P on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 11:42:26 AM PDT

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      •  I'm curious. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Eyesbright, emelyn
        And while we've withdrawn troops, as the public is sick of it, we've increased the number of nations in which we bomb with drones. Expanding the war, though not the number of people conducting it.
        What event or events demarcate the time before the war was expanded and the time after? In other words, at what point did the war expand? What countries are we bombing with drones that we did not before?
        Iraq, in 2008, mandating US troop withdrawal. If Bush had been elected for a third term, he would have been forced to withdraw troops, because that was the agreement we had.
        I'm sorry. Do you live in the alternative universe in which Bush was elected to a third term? You're essentially arguing that the cessation of the Iraq war was a done deal, and that Obama deserves little if any credit for it despite opposing the war from the beginning, and that Bush, by implication, would not have expanded the war as Obama has? If you do live in that alternative universe, I have to say that I'm shocked that Mr. Bush decided not to invade Iraq. Because I'm fairly certain that's what would have happened in the universe I inhabit had he been given a third term.

        In reality, our involvements have wound down under this President. That's pretty much a fact that a lot of people deservedly credit him for.

        •  The Iraq presence was a done deal. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          protectspice, pgm 01, Laconic Lib

          The United States had signed the Agreement that we would move our troops out when we did. No matter who was President they would have moved them out.

          Because of the force of the Status of Forces Agreement.

          Which was signed in 2008.

          Maybe a graphic re: Pakistan might clear up things:
          http://drones.pitchinteractive.com/
          Pay particular attention to before 2009 and after.

          The War expanded when we increased, by several times as you've just witnessed, the bombing of Pakistan. Then added the bombings in Yemen, Somalia, Libya. We've also been aiding the war in Syria, the French in Mali, and have sent military advisers to 35 nations in Africa.

          This latter in the context of AFRICOM's "shift to more kinetic missions". Which itself is a secondary consideration to the overall shift to China as our focus, as promised by the President in 2011.

          US will shift focus from Middle East to Asia Pacific, Barack Obama declares
          ...Mr Obama and Julia Gillard this week unveiled a new military agreement which includes plans to deploy up to 2500 US Marines in Darwin – a move that marked America's most extensive reach into the region since the Vietnam War. ...
          Two months later, the US announced it would deploy 60% of its fleet in the Pacific/Asia which nobody doubts is about China. Least of all the Chinese.

          When one nation goes into another nation and drops bombs that would be an act of War, according to all pre-Obama history. Maybe now there's a new kind of phrase for that kind of thing.

          That the Establishment realizes that they can't get away with pushing troops everywhere, as neither the people nor the budget can handle it, has meant that we are now relying on drones, special forces, and getting our NATO partners, with our direct military support (flying them into Mali, etc), ...

          Hmm. More bombings, and in more nations, while helping NATO to fight more wars in even more nations, while expanding "kinetic missions" in 35 African nations, while expanding military presence against China,

          ... so now, in this glorious time, 2+2 = less than 2, eh?


          Actual Democrats is the surest, quickest. route to More Democrats

          by Jim P on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 02:05:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  That may be true, but I think he (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Jim P

        would have done a worse job of it than Obama has.

        Gondwana has always been at war with Laurasia.

        by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 07:41:59 PM PDT

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        •  Oh, certainly. So would McCain or Romney. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          poco

          Thing is, Obama isn't my focus. It's impossible to be President and not have to twist and turn according to the Establishment machine. Still, it is what it is.


          Actual Democrats is the surest, quickest. route to More Democrats

          by Jim P on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 09:16:54 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Obama tried to keep US forces in Iraq (6+ / 0-)

      He was forced to withdraw them after the Iraqis insisted that they fall under Iraqi legal jurisdiction.

      The key issue has been the failure of the Iraqi parliament to provide a guarantee of immunity from prosecution to US troops that stay.

      US officials had assumed that the earlier deal with the Iraqis would be renegotiated to allow 4-5,000 American forces to remain in a training role beyond the deadline of Dec 31, 2011.

      Government and laws are the agreement we all make to secure everyone's freedom.

      by Simplify on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 12:59:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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