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View Diary: Frenzied gun buyers: scared of the wrong things. (121 comments)

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  •  I mean I don't think it is a good idea (6+ / 0-)

    I'm aware that some people think its a great idea to start their kids out early. I don't accept that children have the maturity not to think of guns as playthings even when trained.

    When a child has grown old enough that you can trust them to have responsibility for chores most parents still would keep them away from power tools because they may not have the strength to control a kickback.

    The  same thing applies to a gun and its recoil. An exception might be a pellet gun or a 22 rifle for a preteen with responsibility to keep varmints out of the chicken coop.

    You wouldn't accept their leaving their guns lying around where a younger sibling might get their hands on it.

    Live Free or Die --- Investigate, Incarcerate

    by rktect on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 05:35:50 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  I think it should be against the law and (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      a2nite

      they should lose custody of their kids until they can guarantee safety from deadly weapons. I think it is serious.

      guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

      by 88kathy on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 05:47:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  This is where we disagree on what the term (6+ / 0-)

        "reasonable" means.

        So, any person whom also happens to own firearms should have their children taken from them until they can satisfy your arbitrary "standards"?

        Insulting and offensive: guilty until proven innocent.

        Tell you what, review my very old diary onthe Murder of Senator Nancy Schaeffer, will ya?

        Maybe you need a reality check here.  Had you experienced the abuse I experienced at the hands of CPS, you wouldn't be making these absurd claims.

        Owning a firearm IS NOT A CRIME! Unless of course, you're a barred person.

        -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

        by gerrilea on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 05:56:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  See GunFail diaries. Every week kids get shot. (2+ / 2-)
          Recommended by:
          a2nite, LilithGardener
          Hidden by:
          Tom Seaview, CarlosJ

          You are hysterical. I am not trying to take your gun. I am trying to get you to KEEP your gun.

          I think it is reasonable to expect guns be kept out of reach of children and if the children get them, the children should be removed from the immediate danger and not introduced back into that home until the home is completely gun safe.

          CPS can be bad, not always. But it is tough on kids when their family of origin disintegrates. You might have been removed from a deadly home. There are times when CPS does remove children from deadly homes. And there are times when CPS fails to remove children from deadly homes and those children die.

          guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

          by 88kathy on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 06:12:25 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm "hysterical"??? Really??? (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            theatre goon, maxomai, PavePusher, CarlosJ

            You mistake my anger and contempt for your position as something else.

            Here's a few points you missed:

            http://fightcps.com/....

            Some highlights from her report:

                *That poor parents often times are targeted to lose their children because they do not have the where-with-all to hire lawyers and fight the system. Being poor does not mean you are not a good parent or that you do not love your child, or that your child should be removed and placed with strangers.

                *That caseworkers and social workers are oftentimes guilty of fraud. They withhold evidence. They fabricate evidence and they seek to terminate parental rights. However, when charges are made against them, the charges are ignored.

                *The funding continues as long as the child is out of the home. When a child in foster care is placed with a new family then "adoption bonus funds" are available. When a child is placed in a mental health facility and is on 16 drugs per day, like two children of a constituent of mine, more funds are involved.

            *The National Center on Child Abuse and Neglect in 1998 reported that six times as many children died in foster care than in the general public and that once removed to official "safety", these children are far more likely to suffer abuse, including sexual molestation than in the general population.

                *That according to the California Little Hoover Commission Report in 2003, 30% to 70% of the children in California group homes do not belong there and should not have been removed from their homes.

            BTW, I do not own any firearms.  So, the Orwellian Doublespeak here:
            I am not trying to take your gun. I am trying to get you to KEEP your gun.
            has no effect upon me.  Read the highlights of Mrs. Schaefer's Report above please.

            The "failures" of CPS are world renowned, that's why the Russians banned Americans from adopting their children.

            ‘End to adoption question’: Russia shocked at another child’s death in US

            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

            by gerrilea on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 06:35:34 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You mistake my position as trying to take your (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              LilithGardener, a2nite

              gun. (by your, I mean guns in general) That is hysterical. We are talking gun regulation here.

              Not taking guns from the population.

              Now you want to morph the gun regulation talk into a talk about CPS effectiveness. That is another tactic in avoiding gun regulation. Dilute the discussion of gun regulation to the mental health problem or, in this case the CPS problem.

              Children should be safe from guns. An adult should be able to provide that safety. If not the children stand a good chance of dying or killing. See GunFail diaries.

              guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

              by 88kathy on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 06:57:56 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Had you not said this, I wouldn't have replied: (7+ / 0-)
                I think it is reasonable to expect guns be kept out of reach of children and if the children get them, the children should be removed from the immediate danger and not introduced back into that home until the home is completely gun safe.
                You are the one that is attempting to equate gun ownership to bad parenting.  

                How do you propose to enforce your "suggestions"?  Random, warrantless searches???

                Owning a gun is not "probable cause" to abrogate rights.

                See 4th Amendment:

                Amendment IV

                The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

                -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                by gerrilea on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 07:20:43 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  If the children get them (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  LilithGardener

                  If the children get them
                  If the children get them
                  If the children get them
                  If the children get them
                  If the children get them

                  I cannot stress that enough, clearly, I cannot stress that enough.

                  Most simply, lets just say kid #1 shot kid #2. Then I would say the children should be removed from the home until the parents or guardians can demonstrate gun safety.

                  You are going off about searches and gun ownership being infringed. WTF.

                  I am saying if the kid gets the gun and shoots the gun or in any way shows the gun (for instance takes it to school), the children should be removed from the home until the parents or guardians demonstrate they can keep the children safe.

                  guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                  by 88kathy on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 07:29:55 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  PS if you read the Gun Fail diary you will quickly (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              a2nite

              see that if the gun owner had properly KEPT his gun there would be no Gun Fail diary.

              Our Constitution was written by Orwell.

              The right to KEEP and bear arms.

              guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

              by 88kathy on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 06:59:42 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  HR (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            theatre goon
            You are hysterical.
            And you have a well-deserved donut.

            Things are more like they are now than they've ever been before...

            by Tom Seaview on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 09:03:28 AM PDT

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            •  You have 5 and have used 2 on me so that (1+ / 2-)
              Recommended by:
              a2nite
              Hidden by:
              theatre goon, CarlosJ

              leaves you 3. And what did you accomplish?

              I maintain that when RkBAers come out with CT theory of gun confiscation they are uncontrollably hysterically paranoid.

              Other CT's are banned here. Gun confiscation CT's are going to be banned. They are hysterical confusion of the highest level.

              guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

              by 88kathy on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 10:58:21 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  People who respect guns (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            PavePusher, CarlosJ, ban nock

            have children who respect guns. My sense of it is that you are being a little like the parent who doesn't want their kids to have sex education in schools because sex can be dangerous or difficult for them to talk about with their kids because they find it embarrassing to admit they really don't know much about it, in the way you really don't know much about guns.

            I'd expect a parent who takes their children hunting and fishing probably has a closer relationship with their children and builds more trust and respect and interest in learning more about other things their parent knows, than someone who wants children removed from their parents  homes because those parents don't share your beliefs.

            My idea of deadly homes would include homes in proximity to hazardous wastes, radon gas, fracked water, smog and acid rain where in addition to those hazards children might be exposed to death by automobile, a hurricane or tornado taking the roof off, floods, mudslides, fires, blizzards, burns from overturning a hot pot on the stove or accidental poisoning from cleaning materials.

            Live Free or Die --- Investigate, Incarcerate

            by rktect on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 11:04:35 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  If you read the GunFail diary every week you (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              a2nite

              might notice that quite a few kids get to find out about the business end of a gun. The Rodney Dangerfield respect version, except it isn't funny.

              Here's a handy link.

              It can be about anything but guns, this discussion about guns. We are talking sensible gun regulation here. And you can play gun morph and anything else but guns, when you wake from your dream we will still be talking sensible gun regulation.

              guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

              by 88kathy on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 11:14:04 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Except when they don't, hence gunfail diaries (0+ / 0-)
        •  When you do foster care or adoption in Kansas (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          a2nite, LilithGardener

          your guns must be locked in a gun safe. CPS in Kansas is not perfect but they do not allow kids around slovenly gun owners.

          guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

          by 88kathy on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 06:16:14 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  And we should apply similar penalties.... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        theatre goon, CarlosJ, ban nock

        to all sources of accidental deaths that rank higher than guns, amIrite?

        Your hate-mail will be graded.

        by PavePusher on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 02:09:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  My training began when I was 8 yrs old. (5+ / 0-)

      My father's reasoning was simple.  He didn't want curiosity to kill us AND he said: "I cannot always be there to protect you. You need to learn to protect yourself when I'm not around."

      And we were taught they were anything but toys.

      1. Always assume a firearm is loaded.
      2. Never point a firearm at something you don't want to kill.
      3. Pulling the trigger is easy, can you live with the consequences?

      When it came to the power tools, we ALWAYS had to ask first, they were more dangerous than the guns.  He never let me use the hacksaw or table saw.  If something needed to be cut, he'd do it.

      -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

      by gerrilea on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 05:50:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'd add a few things to that (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gerrilea, PavePusher

        4. Always secure firearms and ammunition so that accidents can't happen.
        5. Be especially careful when cleaning guns, walking with guns, and hunting with other people.
        6. Never fire a gun into the air, if you need to fire it to make noise fire it into the ground and beware of ricochets.

        Live Free or Die --- Investigate, Incarcerate

        by rktect on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 11:15:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Ah, redundancy... (0+ / 0-)

          There is not such thing as "accidents", just careless people not paying attention.

          -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

          by gerrilea on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 01:52:16 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Wow. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        theatre goon, gerrilea, CarlosJ, rktect

        My childhood, encapsulated.  Thanks!

        Although, I was using chainsaws unsupervised at 14.  (Had to let at least one parent know in advance.)  Other kids started earlier, but I was a bit scrawny until many years later.  Did a lot of exercise trying to catch up for a few years.

        Your hate-mail will be graded.

        by PavePusher on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 02:15:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Personally I consider saws scary (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ban nock, gerrilea, Wood Dragon

          I use them every day. Once or twice a day something binds and kicks back. At 270 pounds I'm just barely big enough and strong enough to stop a chainsaw kicking back before it hits my face. I'm not sure a 14 year old would be. Chainsaws are scary enough but 12"  table saws and chop saws give me nightmares.

          I'm reasonably careful with tools.  After more than have a century of working with them I still have all my fingers. Some of them are deeply gouged from coming into contact with various different "skil" saws and circular saws, but they are all still there so far.

          Everybody who works with saws either respects them or gets bit. I used to work with a guy who took the blade guard off his skil saw just to remind himself how dangerous it really was. Not long after I saw him do that he had given up woodworking and taken to running a mailboat.

          Saws aren't the only tools in my shop that make me nervous. I once had a 14" diameter piece of spalted birch come off a lathe turning at 480 FPs and catch me in the forehead. It threw me across the shop and through a piece of plywood.

          All I'm saying here is yeah we know guns are dangerous, they still are tools we use every day.

          Live Free or Die --- Investigate, Incarcerate

          by rktect on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 05:33:35 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I remember that #2 one especially gerrilea (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gerrilea, theatre goon, Wood Dragon

        but my dad used the word someone. I was pretty young. Made an impression on me.

        How big is your personal carbon footprint?

        by ban nock on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 07:49:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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