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  •  The "cogent argument" (6+ / 0-)

    is one gigantic ad hominem.  Is the issue "what is being talked about," or is it "who is talking"?

    Myself, I'd like to stick with Horkheimer and Adorno's argument that the only way to employ reason morally is to scrutinize reason with reason (failure to do so leading inevitably to the Marquis de Sade and Auschwitz), but maybe I shouldn't.  They were Jews, yes, but perhaps overwhelmed by the taint of being privileged white males.

    Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

    by corvo on Thu May 02, 2013 at 08:12:30 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Yup (6+ / 0-)

      There is a valid point to be made here, but the thesis is not handled in the most impartial fashion.

      Disclaimer: If the above comment can possibly be construed as snark, it probably is.

      by grubber on Thu May 02, 2013 at 08:20:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Any chance (6+ / 0-)

        the diarist will actually comment?

        "The next time everyone will pay for it equally, and there won't be any more Chosen Nations, or any Others. Poor bastards all." ~The Boomer Bible

        by just another vet on Thu May 02, 2013 at 08:25:57 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I'm still wondering what the point is. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        just another vet, commonmass

        Is the point "The oppressed have no language" or is it "There are too many white males on Daily Kos" or is it "There aren't enough minorities on Daily Kos" or what?

        Myself, I'd love to have more minority voices.  But I'd want them to be more like Kevin Gray than blackwaterdog, and I think most Kossacks would be really upset with (a) that choice and (b) the fact that some self-confessed white guy made it.

        Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

        by corvo on Thu May 02, 2013 at 08:30:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's the same point my college lit professor (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          just another vet, jrooth

          was making, tirelessly and tireSOMEly making, I'll add, and that is that the language of white, male, Europeans is inherently oppressive. Suggestions of what to replace it with are myriad.

          I would like to add that while making the assertion that the language of white, male, Europeans is inherently oppressive, my professor also made the point that text is inherently meaningless. To think that some people get tenure. (This is especially funny because the whole deconstructionist thing is based on the theories of white, European males.)

          What is truth? -- Pontius Pilate

          by commonmass on Thu May 02, 2013 at 08:45:13 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Which is precisely why (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            commonmass, just another vet

            I find the Horkheimer/Adorno argument so compelling.  We can't replace the language with something else; that "something else" will preserve the traces of that which we tried to replace.  (Yes, that was a Derridean moment -- he made more sense on this issue than anyone else.)  

            To say that a text constructed out of inherently oppressive language is "meaningless" is, well, intellectually lazy.  It's an extreme combination of New Criticism-style contempt for intentionality combined with an extremist-hermeneutic attitude that meaning comes into being only once there's a reader for a given text.

            Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

            by corvo on Thu May 02, 2013 at 08:52:05 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Exactly, which is why this particular prof (2+ / 0-)

              was so eternally vomitous and sick-making. Her continuous ad hominem attack on half the class was positively vicious, and many of us (including the ladies) were convinced that she purposely gave lower grades to men. She was also the chair of the department.

              What is truth? -- Pontius Pilate

              by commonmass on Thu May 02, 2013 at 08:55:37 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You would (maybe not) be amazed (4+ / 0-)

                at the blatant sexism and oppression by some women in the corporate world who've gotten "theirs" and are determined to pull up the ladder behind them.

                Long ago, I worked for a small company that was bought by a much larger firm with a female CEO at the helm. Some of my female colleagues thought this was just awesome. I told them to be careful what they wished for.

                This [insert unacceptable female slur here] had the audacity to tell senior level women that they'd "better not even think about having kids" if they expected to get ahead in the company. She also spent plenty of time getting articles in professional journals trumpeting her own success, including the history of crushing her male mentors and driving them out of the company on her climb up to CEO.

                When one male VP was found to have made a bad decision, she busted down ALL VPs and senior people (something that hit many more male than female employees). It was a shocking display of "I'm doing this just because I can, fools!".

                Those who do not understand history are condemned to repeat it... in summer school.

                by cassandracarolina on Thu May 02, 2013 at 09:01:46 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  No, it isn't an ad hominem (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sexgenderbody

      It's a recognition that the demographics of the site give rise to a certain way of speaking that's exclusive and that reinforces the current site demographic make up. It is an important issue and it harms the site. I see people who don't conform to the language standards run off this site all the time. And not for things like sexism, but for saying shit the wrong way.

      If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

      by AoT on Thu May 02, 2013 at 09:50:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Examples please. n/t (0+ / 0-)

        Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

        by corvo on Thu May 02, 2013 at 09:55:19 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Heh. (0+ / 0-)

          I think it was a rhetorical rant.

        •  Adept4U is the first one I can think of. (0+ / 0-)

          And no, I'm not talking about blackwaterdog.

          There was at least one other young black person as well.

          If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

          by AoT on Thu May 02, 2013 at 10:35:38 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  same exact kind of case. (0+ / 0-)

            Lots of scattershot accusations of racism.

            Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

            by corvo on Thu May 02, 2013 at 11:24:59 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I can't remember the names (0+ / 0-)

              because they last such a short time. Honestly, looking at the response to this diary I think shows fairly well what the problem is. The diary points out how the use of language can be oppressive and that it is responsible to some extent for the fact that the demographics here are wildly different than the demographics of the party. Then people show up and don't address what was said and instead turn it into some kind of attack on white men as purposely attacking everyone who isn't a white man. Irony abounds.

              If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

              by AoT on Thu May 02, 2013 at 11:29:29 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  it's words (0+ / 0-)

                I'd hate to see what would happen if people had to actually defend themselves from something other than words.

                I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

                by jbou on Thu May 02, 2013 at 11:31:22 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Given that we live in the US and we're talking (0+ / 0-)

                  about women and people of color I can tell you that they do need to defend themselves against more than just words. Probably more than you'd expect. That's the issue. If they were "just words" then it would hardly be a big deal. The issue being brought up is that how we use words matters. You of all people should know the power of words.

                  If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

                  by AoT on Thu May 02, 2013 at 11:36:09 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I grew up with the... (3+ / 0-)

                    queen of verbal and physical abuse as a mother. I guess my callused skin doesn't let the words penetrate.

                    Perspective and all that.

                    I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

                    by jbou on Thu May 02, 2013 at 11:47:10 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I am even more (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      corvo

                      confused than before. What the fuck is this whole argument about again?

                      "The next time everyone will pay for it equally, and there won't be any more Chosen Nations, or any Others. Poor bastards all." ~The Boomer Bible

                      by just another vet on Thu May 02, 2013 at 01:06:46 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  It's about this: (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        just another vet
                        I wrote a post the other day that some people here really didn't like.
                        Translation: "I got donutted big time a couple of days ago and I need a quick mojo fix.  I'm down to three bars ferchrissakes."

                        It certainly isn't dialog; the diarist hasn't condescended to make any follow-up comments.

                        Happens all the time around here.

                        Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                        by corvo on Thu May 02, 2013 at 01:38:53 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

        •  Oops, adept2U (0+ / 0-)

          And there are others who no longer participate as well.

          And no, I don't mean blackwaterdog.

          If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

          by AoT on Thu May 02, 2013 at 10:40:59 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  people leave because... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            just another vet, corvo

            they can't handle disagreement. Because they can't fathom why some person on the intertubes doesn't agree with their precious well thought out opinion.

            and don't get me started about BWD I just got back from a mandatory break.

            I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

            by jbou on Thu May 02, 2013 at 11:34:54 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  How "run off the site?" (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        corvo

        People are being HR'd to the point of auto-ban for not conforming to language standards?  I haven't seen that.

        Sure there's a lot of incivility at times, but I don't think it's confined to people who fail the "white male-ese" standard of writing.  And so what?  If it's out of hand, complain to the management.  Otherwise, stand your ground and argue your point.  I don't see what's so oppressive about that.

        I'm not sure what we educated middle-aged white childless men are supposed to do differently.  Why should we be expected to alter our writing style to accommodate others any more than they should alter their style to accommodate us?

        “What’s the use of having developed a science well enough to make predictions if, in the end, all we’re willing to do is stand around and wait for them to come true?” - Sherwood Rowland

        by jrooth on Thu May 02, 2013 at 10:02:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Sometimes through HRs (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          sexgenderbody

          Sometimes just through a constant harassment due to language usage. Especially when women or people of color call out people who are using discriminatory language. Sure, they aren't physically forced out, but given the incredible whiteness, age, and relative wealth of this place there is clearly something that's a problem. This diary points out at least part of the problem.

          If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

          by AoT on Thu May 02, 2013 at 10:43:31 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  there are serious problems... (0+ / 0-)

            in our country. Use of antiquated racial slurs on the internet ain't one of them.

            I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

            by jbou on Thu May 02, 2013 at 11:39:33 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  So you think our use of langguage (0+ / 0-)

              has nothing to do with the dearth of women and people of color at the site? What's the cause then?

              If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

              by AoT on Thu May 02, 2013 at 11:42:22 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  men like to argue... (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                cassandracarolina, commonmass

                and white men really like to argue. We have an annoying desire to be right about everything and will go to great lengths to prove it. Women will walk away much quicker from an argument. Can't speak to the black folks.

                I say be who we are and let the chips fall where they may and also be genuine. People will respect it. When you start changing to try and please people you get all sorts of muddled and messed up.

                I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

                by jbou on Thu May 02, 2013 at 11:57:45 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  We must know different women. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  just another vet

                  Most of the ones I know can more than hold their own.

                  Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                  by corvo on Thu May 02, 2013 at 08:04:47 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  I'm still trying to understand (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            just another vet, corvo

            what I'm supposed to do differently.  If the way I write is oppressive then exactly how am I supposed to change?

            “What’s the use of having developed a science well enough to make predictions if, in the end, all we’re willing to do is stand around and wait for them to come true?” - Sherwood Rowland

            by jrooth on Thu May 02, 2013 at 11:48:18 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  They can't tell you that (0+ / 0-)

              because to do so they would have to use language, which is irredeemably masculinist.

              Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

              by corvo on Thu May 02, 2013 at 08:04:10 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Run off the site how? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        corvo

        Are people being HR'ed into oblivion for failing to conform to the language standards?  I haven't seen it.

        Sure there's incivility, but I don't think that's confined to people who don't write in "white male-ese."  And so what?  If it's out of hand, complain to the management - otherwise stand your ground and argue your point.  I don't see what's so oppressive about that.

        I'm not sure what we educated middle-aged childless white men are supposed to do differently.  Why should we be expected to alter our writing style to accommodate others any more than they should be expected to do the same?  

        “What’s the use of having developed a science well enough to make predictions if, in the end, all we’re willing to do is stand around and wait for them to come true?” - Sherwood Rowland

        by jrooth on Thu May 02, 2013 at 10:08:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Damn - sorry about the double post. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          corvo, AoT

          I swear I refreshed several times and my first try wasn't there.

          “What’s the use of having developed a science well enough to make predictions if, in the end, all we’re willing to do is stand around and wait for them to come true?” - Sherwood Rowland

          by jrooth on Thu May 02, 2013 at 10:10:07 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  We failed to nurture an environment (0+ / 0-)

          in which users like blackwaterdog could decry presumed white males as "racists" whenever she wanted to, and for whatever reason (including none at all).

          Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

          by corvo on Thu May 02, 2013 at 10:20:39 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Come on, do you really think I'm going to (0+ / 0-)

            defend BWD? Yes, there are people who pull the "you criticized Obama, you're racist card" and they are rightfully told to piss off. This is a different matter altogether.

            If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

            by AoT on Thu May 02, 2013 at 11:07:01 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Okay, then, (0+ / 0-)

              we failed to nurture an environment in which users like Adept2U (or whatever his/her nick was) could decry presumed white males as "racists" whenever she wanted to, and for whatever reason (including none at all).

              Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

              by corvo on Thu May 02, 2013 at 11:25:57 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  We've built an environment where (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                sexgenderbody

                people of color and women aren't comfortable. As clearly illustrated by the lack of people of color and women. Sure, there are some, but they are a much smaller percentage than either the internet in general and even more so the party. That's not an accident.

                If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

                by AoT on Thu May 02, 2013 at 11:33:57 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  so what can we change? (0+ / 0-)

                  I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

                  by jbou on Thu May 02, 2013 at 11:49:28 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I would hope so (0+ / 0-)

                    I mean, it's certainly possible to not have this be true. I don't know that we will change, but we sure can. There are people working on it, obviously this was not a real attempt at that, but there are people like Black Kos who are trying to make this a space where more people feel welcome.

                    If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

                    by AoT on Thu May 02, 2013 at 11:57:04 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Three thoughts: (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      just another vet

                      1. You didn't answer jbou's question.
                      2. Why hasn't this diary been added to Black Kos?
                      3. As someone to the left of Richard Nixon, I don't feel comfortable here either, but I'm not going to let that intimidate me.

                      Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                      by corvo on Thu May 02, 2013 at 01:31:06 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

          •  BWD is white. n/t (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            corvo

            When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

            by PhilJD on Thu May 02, 2013 at 05:11:42 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Aha, so the reason that only 27% of (0+ / 0-)

        the community is female, and 12% is non-white (if you believe those statistics) is because the white males are running the others off?

        •  "because the white males are running the (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          sexgenderbody

          others off?"

          Yes and no. Not in the sense that I think you mean it. There aren't groups of white males intentionally running women and people of color off the site. The mechanism is more subtle than that. White male-ese, to use the language of this diary, is oppressive in a great many cases. It's also very obvious when a bunch of white dudes are responding to a person of color who is pissed about something someone else said.

          Shit, this comment section is a great example. Why the hell would the diarist stick around after seeing all these people make fun of them for expressing an unpopular opinion that is specifically critiquing white masculine language? If there had been any chance that the comments were going to be a useful dialog and not a pile on then maybe the diarist would have had reason to stick around. But I never see that happen here. Or at least it's rare enough that I don't see it.

          If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

          by AoT on Thu May 02, 2013 at 11:13:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  umm, what language are you using (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            jrooth

            that isn't "white masculine"?

            Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

            by corvo on Thu May 02, 2013 at 11:28:08 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I do use white masculine language (0+ / 0-)

              on a more regular basis than I should. I never pretended to be innocent. But one way I'm not doing that is by talking about these things and not just assuming that everything is fine.

              Also regarding your sig. I just adopted a stray. She's the best dog of all time.

              If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

              by AoT on Thu May 02, 2013 at 11:40:06 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The King would argue with you on that one. n/t (0+ / 0-)

                Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                by corvo on Thu May 02, 2013 at 01:28:44 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  This is a political discussion forum. (4+ / 0-)

            I expect diarists to stick around and discuss.

            And frankly, I think it's a heck of a lot more interesting to discuss things with people who disagree with me - provided it's a genuine discussion and not just throwing talking points back and forth.

            “What’s the use of having developed a science well enough to make predictions if, in the end, all we’re willing to do is stand around and wait for them to come true?” - Sherwood Rowland

            by jrooth on Thu May 02, 2013 at 11:53:53 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  The diarist is clearly an unhappy (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              just another vet

              person who likes to complain and take a crap all over a community but then walk away, leaving everyone else alone with her shit.

              •  His shit. Diarist is a man in RL. n/t (0+ / 0-)

                Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                by corvo on Thu May 02, 2013 at 08:05:40 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

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