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View Diary: College Life, Rape and Public Discourse (83 comments)

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  •  I disagree with that. (3+ / 0-)
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    Cream Puff, evilstorm, Sparhawk

    You are assuming that the rapists go out looking for victims, and rape the first one they find. But many or most of these situations are ones in which the rapist saw an opportunity and took it. If a girl is not passed out at a party, there may be no rape that night. So there will be less rapes overall. And even if the number stayed the same, it's still good advice to give to someone you care about. I'd much rather somebody else is raped than my daughter, naturally.

    •  sex with an unconscious person is NOT sex. (6+ / 0-)

      Most men who are not rapists really enjoy sex with a concious, present partner who is consenting and enjoying it too. In fact to crave anything other than that is a man who craves access otherwise known as control over a person.  That rapist is not having sex...he is craving having his way, which is the sickness we don't talk about when we act as if its normal for a man to want to have a sexual act with an unconscious and non consenting person. Sex with an unconcious person is one level of conciousness away from sex with a dead person. That ain't normal folks!!!

      If a woman gets drunk, the only thing that causes her to get raped is getting drunk in the same room with a rapist. (a man who gets off on an unconcious, non consenting person, that is, control over her, access against her will which is completely different than real sex). This is the point we must teach so that men realize that a desire for access us NOT sex.My husband does not enjoy sex, unless I do too. Anything less is a remnant of a time when men controlled women. Most mature men prefer great sex with a willing partners. Its sick to have anything else.

      •  I agree with you, however (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        home solar, kyril

        oftentimes the man is too drunk to know what he's doing. While rape of drunk women by sober (or mostly sober) men who know perfectly well what they're doing certainly happens--and those men are predators--being drunk makes men act stupid, too.

        And too-drunk-to-consent does not, at all, mean, unconscious. Far from it. A whole hell of a lot less drunk than unconcious is still too drunk to consent.

        So, the stereotype of the completely sober predator raping the completely unconcious girl is nice and neat, a very black-and-white scenario. We can all agree on this one. But a seemingly coherent, but too drunk to completely consent, girl and a guy who's too drunk to figure out exactly how drunk she is--that's not as clean-cut. But it's also a hell of a lot more common, especially on a college campus. And how do you avoid that scenario? By not getting drunk. (Both of them!)

        Yes, I tell my daughters that getting drunk could lead them to do something they really don't want to do. I'd say the same to sons if I had them. But, the fact is, even if the guy is too drunk to truly consent, he's far likely to ever regret it--or, more accurately, to ever admit he regretted it.

        A good friend of mine back in college days didn't remember losing her virginity. However, neither did her partner--and it was his virginity as well. When another girl suggested she accuse him of rape, she replied, "Well, we really don't know who raped who, do we?" (She was dating this guy, it wasn't a pickup). Luckily, the message that both of them took from this experience was to quit drinking.

        "Maybe: it's a vicious little word that could slay me"--Sara Bareilles

        by ChurchofBruce on Thu May 02, 2013 at 10:12:15 PM PDT

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        •  I call bs on this. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          randomfacts, splashy

          My husband is an alcoholic. He has 8 years sobriety. He and I were together in times when he was absolutely out of it. And he is and a very sexually charged human being. He helped me understand this principle more than any one ever could. No matter how drunk my husband was, in the worst of his disease...if I said "no" the answer was no. He might coerce (beg) but he never forced. I know that my husband in the worst of drunkeness would have had nothing to do with an unconcious lover.

          Any man, drunk or sober, who pursues sex, without conciousness and presence has something else going on...and it's about power and control. Drunk or sober!

          •  You gotta come up with better arguments (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            wavpeac, soros, RamblinDave

            than "my husband is not that way". Obviously the commenter did not mean (or say) that 100% of men would rape while drunk. You have lots of arguments at your disposal better than that you know one person who is not like that.

            •  You completely miss the point. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              randomfacts, splashy

              Either you are a rapist or you aren't. You just don't get it. This is not a natural state for men. This is not how normal men behave. Drunk or not. That was my point. Not that there is one example in my husband. My husband was a player. He did lots of bad stuff when drunk...but this he would never do. Nor would any man who is NOT a rapist. Rapists want control...they don't want mutual sex. When  you are don't become a rapist. You don't become a murderer. You don't become someone totally different than you are. You may lower your inhibitions. You may have increased rage if you have anger. You may lose your temper might get into might throw a punch...but you don't change your fundamental soul.

              Alcohol does not turn men into rapists....Wanting to control another human being while having sex does that.

              •  That is the same thing as what the (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Blue Bell Bookworm

                commenter said, nothing is in conflict. Some men, whose makeup makes them potential rapists, are more likely to rape when drunk (and when presented with an opportunity). Other men wouldn't rape anyone ever, whether they are drunk or not. In other words, different people are different. In any event, smart people avoid getting shitfaced in public as it makes you a more likely victim (and, for some men, assailant).

              •  I don't buy "you are or you aren't". (4+ / 0-)

                Nothing about human beings is that binary.  Nothing.

              •  I agree and disagree. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Blue Bell Bookworm

                You say this is not a natural state for men.  I absolutely agree.  But the situation you describe with your husband is also not the same situation as the "party and binge drink" atmosphere university is often viewed as.  

                Ignoring the many differences between how alcholics handle alcohol compared to binge drinking teenagers, the whole social situation and circumstances surrounding the behaviour are also different.  There are lots of kids who go to university with the ideas of movies and tv in their heads.  That it is a place where you party every night, binge drink, try drugs and where everyone is screwing all the time.  This idea you go to university to party and get laid is a fact.  

                When people are going into a situation with the idea that getting drunk as possible, and having as much casual sex as possible is not just the norm, but expected, then you have a HUGE recipe for disaster.  

                Yes, there are absolutely predators out there who are rapists and just looking for someone to take advantage of.  But there are also a lot of people who have the wrong mindset to begin with, making bad decisions because they feel that is what you do.  And bad decisions lead to more bad decisions which lead to people getting hurt.

                •  Rape...non consensual sex=crime not accident. (1+ / 0-)
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                  geesh. normal men dont go after unconcious partners. and if they do...then perhaps its the men who shouldnt get shit faced...if it makes them violatethe law! i am not saying that women can safely be drunk....they cant because their might be a rapust in the room. But taking the focus off the drunkeness or behavior of the rapist is offensive and a remnant of white male priviledge...abuses against women and slaves...entitlement. And clearly it causes folks to get defensive!

                  •  Exactly! (3+ / 0-)

                    The man that can't control himself if he gets drunk should not get drunk. That's the bottom line.

                    Whoever is doing the crime is the one that needs to do something about their problem.

                    Women create the entire labor force. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sympathy is the strongest instinct in human nature. - Charles Darwin

                    by splashy on Fri May 03, 2013 at 11:45:40 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Thanks I was losing faith in mankind for a minute. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Batya the Toon
                      •  Why? (0+ / 0-)

                        Because people don't just accept "Hey! Stop being stupid!" as a solution that will work?  Rape is a real problem that demands a real discussion and a real solution towards fixing the rape culture we seem to have.   I honestly think people making sweeping, overly-broad generalizations aren't helping come to any solution.  

                    •  I agree with you completely. (0+ / 0-)

                      I fail to see how this rebuts anything I've said.  I agree that is a man can't control himself when he gets drunk, he should not get drunk in the first place.  But that attitude pre-supposes that all rape is planned or premeditated and all men are predators who bide their time until a situation arises that they can exploit.  I'm not convinced that is reality.  

                      Studies have shown that most people have stolen something at some point in their lives.  That doesn't make everyone akin to thieves who should be thrown into prison. And my pointing this out is certainly not equivalent of saying that legitimate criminals don't exist.  

                  •  I agree. (0+ / 0-)

                    I never meant to imply that only women should avoid the situations I referenced.  I think men are fully to blame for putting themselves in situations where they can do something extremely stupid.  But this isn't just rape, how many men (or women) will break laws because they are drunk.  Laws ranging from drunk driving, assault, theft, vandalism, etc.   Does this mean that they are all akin to criminals in prison?  

                    What bothered me in your post is that is essentially what you are doing.

                    I'm not defensive at all.  I do agree with your general point.  Where I disagree is that you seem to ignore or be unaware of the atmosphere many in university are a part of.  An atmosphere that encourages stupid and irresponsible behaviour is GUARANTEED to end up with people making very stupid and likely illegal mistakes.  That doesn't automatically mean they are all evil predators who

                    My point remains and coming back to the original article here.  Educating students isn't going to stop this problem.  If universities truly want to prevent rape, their sole focus should be on discouraging those "party" stereotypes, cliches or legitimate activities on school time or on school grounds.  I guarantee you, if universities stopped quietly condoning the situations that lead to rape (regardless of reasons behind it) you will see significantly less rape occurring.

            •  The men that tend to do that when drunk (0+ / 0-)

              Need to get a handle on it, and if nothing else need to have someone else to stop them. It's their responsibility, not anyone else's.

              Women create the entire labor force. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sympathy is the strongest instinct in human nature. - Charles Darwin

              by splashy on Fri May 03, 2013 at 11:43:48 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  your husband sounds like (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            CayceP, RamblinDave

            a good man, in spite of his illness. Would that all men were that good.

          •  You completely missed my point (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Blue Bell Bookworm

            What if you did NOT say no? What if you didn't say anything?

            Look, if I'm sober, I can better judge a partner who's had a few and isn't saying "yes" or "no". In fact, it's happened, and I think I wrote a diary about it once--she was drunk, I was tipsy, things were going along, nobody was saying "yes" or "no", she wasn't unconscious--in fact, she was moaning--but I was sober enough to figure out that she was a bit too drunk for this. And it's a good thing, because she called me the next morning in a panic. "WTF HAPPENED LAST NIGHT????" I'm very glad I was able to answer that with, "no, that didn't happen."

            If I'm truly drunk? I don't trust my judgement with a partner who is not clearly saying "NO!"

            So, no, I am not at ALL talking about incidents where the woman, drunk sober or otherwise, says "no". That's rape. Period.

            Look, I'm back in college now, at 48 :), but I remember my first attempt back when I was normal age, and I also have friends in school who are of that typical college age. The half-drunk-and-things-just-happen, at that age, is far more common than a, "Yes, do me now!" or "No, stop!" is, especially if it's not a long-established couple who've done the mating dance before (as with you and your husband).

            That's what I was talking about: girl, drunk but conscious, not giving out clear verbal signs. Guy, drunk, not able to interpret the non-verbal signs.

            "Maybe: it's a vicious little word that could slay me"--Sara Bareilles

            by ChurchofBruce on Fri May 03, 2013 at 09:24:20 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  False (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          And too-drunk-to-consent does not, at all, mean, unconscious. Far from it. A whole hell of a lot less drunk than unconcious [sic] is still too drunk to consent.
          This is simply not true. Lots of people might want it to be true, but it isn't.

          If someone asks a person in words "do you want to have sex?" and the response is "yes", that's consent. Also, other than threats of violence, there cannot be any rape when one party convinces the other one to have sex using words alone.

          It is not incumbent on any party to analyze how drunk the other party is and there is no practical way for that to happen in any case. It is completely unreasonable in any manner to convict someone for "should have known how drunk the other party was". Otherwise virtually everyone everywhere who has ever had sex with someone after two drinks is a rapist.

          "Yes" = consent. Period.

          (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
          Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

          by Sparhawk on Fri May 03, 2013 at 01:27:33 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Well said! eom (0+ / 0-)

        Women create the entire labor force. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sympathy is the strongest instinct in human nature. - Charles Darwin

        by splashy on Fri May 03, 2013 at 11:41:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Rapists do go out looking for victims (0+ / 0-)

      There are studies that suggest exactly that -- it's not that all drunk college boys are going to rape; it's that the six percent of the population that knows exactly what they're doing, has learned to use the drunken situations of college to create plausible deniability so they can operate openly.

      Do you not see that it is the grossest idolatry to speak of the market as though it were the rival of God?

      by kismet on Sat May 04, 2013 at 04:40:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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