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View Diary: College Life, Rape and Public Discourse (83 comments)

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  •  I call bs on this. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    randomfacts, splashy

    My husband is an alcoholic. He has 8 years sobriety. He and I were together in times when he was absolutely out of it. And he is and a very sexually charged human being. He helped me understand this principle more than any one ever could. No matter how drunk my husband was, in the worst of his disease...if I said "no" the answer was no. He might coerce (beg) but he never forced. I know that my husband in the worst of drunkeness would have had nothing to do with an unconcious lover.

    Any man, drunk or sober, who pursues sex, without conciousness and presence has something else going on...and it's about power and control. Drunk or sober!

    •  You gotta come up with better arguments (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wavpeac, soros, RamblinDave

      than "my husband is not that way". Obviously the commenter did not mean (or say) that 100% of men would rape while drunk. You have lots of arguments at your disposal better than that you know one person who is not like that.

      •  You completely miss the point. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        randomfacts, splashy

        Either you are a rapist or you aren't. You just don't get it. This is not a natural state for men. This is not how normal men behave. Drunk or not. That was my point. Not that there is one example in my husband. My husband was a player. He did lots of bad stuff when drunk...but this he would never do. Nor would any man who is NOT a rapist. Rapists want control...they don't want mutual sex. When  you are drunk...you don't become a rapist. You don't become a murderer. You don't become someone totally different than you are. You may lower your inhibitions. You may have increased rage if you have anger. You may lose your temper easier...you might get into fights...you might throw a punch...but you don't change your fundamental soul.

        Alcohol does not turn men into rapists....Wanting to control another human being while having sex does that.

        •  That is the same thing as what the (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Blue Bell Bookworm

          commenter said, nothing is in conflict. Some men, whose makeup makes them potential rapists, are more likely to rape when drunk (and when presented with an opportunity). Other men wouldn't rape anyone ever, whether they are drunk or not. In other words, different people are different. In any event, smart people avoid getting shitfaced in public as it makes you a more likely victim (and, for some men, assailant).

        •  I don't buy "you are or you aren't". (4+ / 0-)

          Nothing about human beings is that binary.  Nothing.

        •  I agree and disagree. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Blue Bell Bookworm

          You say this is not a natural state for men.  I absolutely agree.  But the situation you describe with your husband is also not the same situation as the "party and binge drink" atmosphere university is often viewed as.  

          Ignoring the many differences between how alcholics handle alcohol compared to binge drinking teenagers, the whole social situation and circumstances surrounding the behaviour are also different.  There are lots of kids who go to university with the ideas of movies and tv in their heads.  That it is a place where you party every night, binge drink, try drugs and where everyone is screwing all the time.  This idea you go to university to party and get laid is a fact.  

          When people are going into a situation with the idea that getting drunk as possible, and having as much casual sex as possible is not just the norm, but expected, then you have a HUGE recipe for disaster.  

          Yes, there are absolutely predators out there who are rapists and just looking for someone to take advantage of.  But there are also a lot of people who have the wrong mindset to begin with, making bad decisions because they feel that is what you do.  And bad decisions lead to more bad decisions which lead to people getting hurt.

          •  Rape...non consensual sex=crime not accident. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            splashy

            geesh. normal men dont go after unconcious partners. and if they do...then perhaps its the men who shouldnt get shit faced...if it makes them violatethe law! i am not saying that women can safely be drunk....they cant because their might be a rapust in the room. But taking the focus off the drunkeness or behavior of the rapist is offensive and a remnant of white male priviledge...abuses against women and slaves...entitlement. And clearly it causes folks to get defensive!

            •  Exactly! (3+ / 0-)

              The man that can't control himself if he gets drunk should not get drunk. That's the bottom line.

              Whoever is doing the crime is the one that needs to do something about their problem.

              Women create the entire labor force. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sympathy is the strongest instinct in human nature. - Charles Darwin

              by splashy on Fri May 03, 2013 at 11:45:40 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Thanks I was losing faith in mankind for a minute. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Batya the Toon
                •  Why? (0+ / 0-)

                  Because people don't just accept "Hey! Stop being stupid!" as a solution that will work?  Rape is a real problem that demands a real discussion and a real solution towards fixing the rape culture we seem to have.   I honestly think people making sweeping, overly-broad generalizations aren't helping come to any solution.  

              •  I agree with you completely. (0+ / 0-)

                I fail to see how this rebuts anything I've said.  I agree that is a man can't control himself when he gets drunk, he should not get drunk in the first place.  But that attitude pre-supposes that all rape is planned or premeditated and all men are predators who bide their time until a situation arises that they can exploit.  I'm not convinced that is reality.  

                Studies have shown that most people have stolen something at some point in their lives.  That doesn't make everyone akin to thieves who should be thrown into prison. And my pointing this out is certainly not equivalent of saying that legitimate criminals don't exist.  

            •  I agree. (0+ / 0-)

              I never meant to imply that only women should avoid the situations I referenced.  I think men are fully to blame for putting themselves in situations where they can do something extremely stupid.  But this isn't just rape, how many men (or women) will break laws because they are drunk.  Laws ranging from drunk driving, assault, theft, vandalism, etc.   Does this mean that they are all akin to criminals in prison?  

              What bothered me in your post is that is essentially what you are doing.

              I'm not defensive at all.  I do agree with your general point.  Where I disagree is that you seem to ignore or be unaware of the atmosphere many in university are a part of.  An atmosphere that encourages stupid and irresponsible behaviour is GUARANTEED to end up with people making very stupid and likely illegal mistakes.  That doesn't automatically mean they are all evil predators who

              My point remains and coming back to the original article here.  Educating students isn't going to stop this problem.  If universities truly want to prevent rape, their sole focus should be on discouraging those "party" stereotypes, cliches or legitimate activities on school time or on school grounds.  I guarantee you, if universities stopped quietly condoning the situations that lead to rape (regardless of reasons behind it) you will see significantly less rape occurring.

      •  The men that tend to do that when drunk (0+ / 0-)

        Need to get a handle on it, and if nothing else need to have someone else to stop them. It's their responsibility, not anyone else's.

        Women create the entire labor force. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sympathy is the strongest instinct in human nature. - Charles Darwin

        by splashy on Fri May 03, 2013 at 11:43:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  your husband sounds like (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      CayceP, RamblinDave

      a good man, in spite of his illness. Would that all men were that good.

    •  You completely missed my point (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Blue Bell Bookworm

      What if you did NOT say no? What if you didn't say anything?

      Look, if I'm sober, I can better judge a partner who's had a few and isn't saying "yes" or "no". In fact, it's happened, and I think I wrote a diary about it once--she was drunk, I was tipsy, things were going along, nobody was saying "yes" or "no", she wasn't unconscious--in fact, she was moaning--but I was sober enough to figure out that she was a bit too drunk for this. And it's a good thing, because she called me the next morning in a panic. "WTF HAPPENED LAST NIGHT????" I'm very glad I was able to answer that with, "no, that didn't happen."

      If I'm truly drunk? I don't trust my judgement with a partner who is not clearly saying "NO!"

      So, no, I am not at ALL talking about incidents where the woman, drunk sober or otherwise, says "no". That's rape. Period.

      Look, I'm back in college now, at 48 :), but I remember my first attempt back when I was normal age, and I also have friends in school who are of that typical college age. The half-drunk-and-things-just-happen, at that age, is far more common than a, "Yes, do me now!" or "No, stop!" is, especially if it's not a long-established couple who've done the mating dance before (as with you and your husband).

      That's what I was talking about: girl, drunk but conscious, not giving out clear verbal signs. Guy, drunk, not able to interpret the non-verbal signs.

      "Maybe: it's a vicious little word that could slay me"--Sara Bareilles

      by ChurchofBruce on Fri May 03, 2013 at 09:24:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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