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View Diary: Thomas E. Woods, Jr. and the Neo-Confederate Catholic Right (23 comments)

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  •  I did address your point (1+ / 0-)
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    Bronx59

    It is a non-starter to expect mass defections from the Catholic church. And your effort to invalidate Frank's good work is IMO, an effort to suppress knowledge and understanding of our current situation -- and thus advocacy of ignorance.  You are not the only one who does this kind of thing. And people do this for a range of reasons that are no better supported than yours.  

    But that said, there are certainly people who are well informed who disagree with me about all kinds of things. But you are clearly not among them. At least as indicated by your online behavior, which is all I have to go on.

    •  I don't make efforts to suppress anyone's opinion (0+ / 0-)

      or any kind of knowledge.  The fact that you view my or other opinions in this way is the crux of your problem. You don't like and don't tolerate views from those who aren't wearing the religion glasses. And when someone holds to their opinion and isn't convinced by yours, you always melt the conversation down into accusing them of ignorance. At least, that is what I have observed based on your online behavior not only with me but with others, which is all I have to go on.

      Actually there are mass defections from the Catholic church happening without any help from me. Many of these people have realized that financially supporting an institution that is a bad actor and has no chance of changing is not a rational thing to do.

      Are Opus Dei or any of the Protestant right wing groups going to disappear because of either being "outed" or criticized by writers who belong to and support the same institutions and rever the same texts?  I would say that is just as much of a non-starter as anything I propose. Knowing about the players in the religious right and what they are up to is important in a way, but the cast of villians is so vast and always changing, I would rather see action on things we can do something about..... like the catholic systems taking over our hospitals. Hence the beginning of my comment. I'm sure that if Frank has an issue with my suggestions, he'll let me know. Hopefully without suggesting that I am ill-informed, which is simply an arrogant thing to say.

      If I had called Frank ignorant or you ignorant for the positions you have taken in your diaries, then I would deserve a dressing down. But I don't name call, and you need to stop it.

      •  It is obvious (3+ / 0-)
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        SeaTurtle, Bronx59, Frank Cocozzelli

        that you are ignorant; that ignorance is a value you hold dear; and that you express it by seeking to invalidate the efforts of those of us to seek knowledge and to apply it.  I have seen you do this often.  Maybe you don't realize how offense and counter-productive it is.  If so, I hope you will consider it sometime.  Because this has nothing to do with atheism and I encourage and invite you to prove me wrong by acting in a knowledgeable and respectful fashion.

        While it is true, as you say, there are many who are leaving the Catholic Church, it remains by far the largest Christian body in the US, has vast holdings; and profound influence. That is likely to remain so for at least the foreseeable future. I am aware of zero evidence to the contrary, and note that you have presented none.

        Unlike you, Frank values his church and seeks to reform and bring out the best of the tradition.  Many of us value the knowledge and depth of understanding that Frank brings, even if you do not.  If you think the issues involving Catholic hospitals are important, that is something on which we probably agree. I even written a bit about the subject. Since you think there are things that can and should be done, I hope you will take the time to write about it. I, for one, will be very interested in what you have to say. If you diary about it, I will recommend it whether I agree with you or not. It will be my way of welcoming you to the conversation.

        As for your charge about me: There are lots of people I know, like, and respect who, as you put it, do not view things through the lens of religion. And unlike you, they are knowledgeable and respectful of others.  Sometimes we agree and sometimes we don't. Just as it is with my religious colleagues. I like and respect people for who they are and not because of what they believe or do not believe, even as such things are sometimes an important part of their identities.  

        •  You really don't see it, do you? (0+ / 0-)

          You start your reply by telling me that I am not only ignorant, but actually value ignorance, and then you go on to talk about how you want "respect" for your views and how respectful you are of others views, even when they are different. You really don't see the hypocrisy in that, do you?  

          I have said nothing and done nothing to try to invalidate your views or Frank's views or anyone elses, but you continue to see certain types of counter discourse or suggestions for solutions that you just plain don't like as an opening to declare people ignorant, disrespectful or dishonest (as you did recently with a poster called theDon).  

          There are ways to deal with people who present ideas that you disagree with or find distasteful. Most diarists either argue the points made or simply ignore comments that they feel they are making no headway with. Most seem to understand the concept of "agree to disagree", but you don't.  You feel the need to get personal and make sweeping judgements of people when they resist coming around to your point of view.

          As for my comments on the Catholic church, I stand by the idea that if more catholics stop enabling this institution with their money, it will eventually lose those "vast holdings" and "profound influence".  It may not happen in my lifetime, but anything I can do to encourage it, I will do. Even if it involves planting that idea in occasional blogs about the Catholic Church.  The intention of my comments are to get people to maybe think about the consequences of their continued association with a corrupt institution that I feel is NOT going to change (and there's a lot of evidence for that view).  It is not intended to insult individual personal beliefs.  If I wanted to do that,  I'd call people like Frank "ignorant" for holding his religious beliefs and call it a day.   But that's not my MO. It's yours.

          •  You are a troll, Fishtroller01 (0+ / 0-)

            You contribute nothing to the site except for your own sneering, ill-informed, and opportunistic comments. .

            I get it that you don't want Frank and me to write about the things that we do, in the way that we do. That much is clear.  But don't piss on my leg and tell me its raining.

            Let's take a quick look at your first comment in this thread, and note your characterizations of the serious, significant actors Frank writes about as "these clowns" and "jerks."  The tone and the substance of your comment is aggressively dismissive and derisive towards the diarist, what he has to say, and the value of the knowledge and analysis he offers. You claim, with zero substantiation that nothing can be done about the things Frank has mentioned. You claim to think so is just "whistling in the wind."  And you know this, how, proud ignoramus?

            You sneeringly toss off your ill informed opinion as truth, and like a thug declare it to be "the bottom line."

            I am much more worried about Catholics owning (1+ / 0-)

            hospitals than these clowns' opinions and the war over who reflects the "right kind" of catholicism. You say the catholic traditions favor social activism/economic fairness, and these people say the opposite. So who is right? It is a never ending argument and won't be resolved within the structure of the Roman Catholic church or the Vatican or within one Catholic church or the other in the US. Just how are you going to "stop" these right wing Catholics in a land of free speech, and why do you think there is strategy that will change their minds?

            Here's the bottom line in my view. Until people stop belonging to the Roman Catholic church as headed by the Pope and the Vatican, and continue to tithe to that institution, constant articles voicing indignation over these people, Opus Dei, etc. etc. is similar to whistling in the wind. If the Catholic church as it now stands is hobbled financially, then its political power and influence on our government (and world) will wane and it won't matter at all what these jerks say.

            I notice that you avoided the invitation in my above comment to contribute to the discussion by writing something about the issues involving Catholic hospitals about which in this thread you say you think things can be done.  Given your lack of response, I can only presume that you did not because you don't actually have anything to say -- except to try to further bully people into only talking about what you want them to talk about.  That does not work with me and I know it also does not work with Frank.  And I can promise that I will notice if you behave like a dick on my diaries. And knowing Frank, I am sure he will as well.  
            •  Whew! I hope you feel better now... (0+ / 0-)

              We have more insults to add to your vocabulary of hate towards opinions you don't like...sneering, opportunistic, proud ignoramus (my personal favorite), thug and dick. Your've actually over-used "ill-informed". You might want to work on a replacement for that one.

              You also might want to inform all the others who only comment on this site and don't write diaries that they are contributing NOTHING to the site. I find it fascinating that you confer to me a power to "bully" people out of their opinions. If I had that, boy, I could really fix the whole world, couldn't I?

              Are you sure that Frank approves of your techniques of debate here?  He has politely disagreed with me at times, or simply ignored my comments as he seems to be doing here. I guess he doesn't feel as threatened by my views as you do. For all I know he could be thinking that I am the one whistling in the wind, which is OK with me!

              Be happy Fred, and have a good day!

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