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View Diary: Abbreviated Pundit Round-up: The gay economist, jobs and the continuing gun responsibility push (203 comments)

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  •  I am focused on Myth #5: A gun at home (10+ / 0-)

    makes you safer.

    Er...... no it doesn't and I do not mean all the standard warnings about "it will get stolen and used against you" blah blah blah.

    I mean that it simply won't protect you.

    All a gun allows you to do is shoot something. Sure shooting an assailant is self-defense and 'protection" but it is FUCKING THIN protection and without TRAINING that gun is a liability more than an option.

    •  excellent point! n/t (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      xxdr zombiexx, commonmass

      "when the going gets weird, the weird turn pro"

      by gravlax on Sat May 04, 2013 at 05:05:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  joe nocera today (12+ / 0-)
      The killer turned out to be a man named Billy Ray Retherford, who was on the lam after killing a woman two weeks earlier and was hiding in the Detlors’ empty home. The next day, Retherford was killed in a shootout with the police. He was using the same .22 handgun.

      The gun, however, was not his. It belonged to Richard Detlor, who, according to the police report, had left it, loaded, in the nightstand by his bed before departing for Wisconsin several months earlier.

      When Imhoff’s murder was brought to my attention recently, I was stunned that a supposedly “responsible gun owner” would leave a loaded gun in a house that was empty for months at a time. Yes, the odds of someone breaking into the house and using the gun were small, but they weren’t zero. That the Detlors didn’t take the simple precaution of unloading their gun and locking it up struck me as incredibly negligent.

      http://www.nytimes.com/...

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by Greg Dworkin on Sat May 04, 2013 at 05:07:15 AM PDT

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    •  You have to consider the danger (10+ / 0-)

      of keeping a gun in your home, too: specifically, the danger that you will shoot yourself, or one of your loved ones, or that they will shoot you.

      It happens, and not just with people who don't practice gun safety (keeping their weapons in locked safe, treating every weapon as though it was loaded, etc.). My uncle almost shot his own son when he unexpectedly came home from college in the middle of the night. In the dark hall, my uncle thought he was a burglar.

      •  Every drive into the city could be one's last. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        commonmass

        Car accidents.

        We don't let fear of that keep us from buying, owning and driving cars.

        people can get hurt playing football, but we still let kids do it.

        We prepare for things and we (some of at least)  are careful and responsible.

        •  I think it is important to remember (6+ / 0-)

          that we live in a society where guns are marketed to kids, and given to children as young as five years old.

          We should remember that every time we talk about guns.

          What is truth? -- Pontius Pilate

          by commonmass on Sat May 04, 2013 at 06:40:15 AM PDT

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          •  Plenty of people are trained with gun safety from (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            commonmass

            early ages. Unsure how old I was when I got my first BB gun and was probably 12 or so when I was given a 22 rifle.

            NEVER EVER EVER in my home would I have been allowed to have that thing propped against the wall or available to play with. It was hidden (I found it but never bothered it because it was a GUN) and i would have been stir-fried had I messed with it.

            The story of the 5 year old is a story of parental neglect.

            •  I was taught to shoot at about 12, but with (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              xxdr zombiexx

              an adult gun.

              Yes, it's a story of parental neglect, but I also think that we need to look seriously at whether or not it should be legal to give guns to kids who can barely write. There are lots of other restrictions, after all.

              What is truth? -- Pontius Pilate

              by commonmass on Sat May 04, 2013 at 06:45:16 AM PDT

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              •  We could spar about the meaning of "give" (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                commonmass

                Allowing a rifle standing in a child's room is basic neglect, speaking as a licensed therapist who spent 20 years working with kids in the inner city.

                I was clearly 'given" a gun but was NEVER allowed to just mess around with it. We were in the country shooting safely or the thing was unavailable. No ifs ands or buts.

                This is probably terrible but the family of this tragedy should have jail time.

                •  Oh, I totally agree. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  xxdr zombiexx

                  I was taught gun safety (see my comment below about how my dad stores his guns) right from the beginning. Frankly, I think a lot of gun owners are serious about safety. However, in a culture with a gun fetish like ours, I think that often leads to cavalier attitudes.

                  What is truth? -- Pontius Pilate

                  by commonmass on Sat May 04, 2013 at 06:55:30 AM PDT

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                  •  it's a culture mythology that drives (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    commonmass

                    the emotionalization of the issue.

                    I don't buy the mythology and thats what may seem like a passe attitude toward guns: it could not be further from the truth.

                    Most accidents are obviously from people just not taking guns as seriously as they should.

                    this is why numbnuts leave them laying around.

              •  Ya think? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                commonmass

                Parental neglect is about as rare as gum chewing. Any argument about anything that assumes parental responsibility works almost all of the time is going to be a very hard sell.

                I'm from the Elizabeth Warren wing of the Democratic Party

                by voicemail on Sat May 04, 2013 at 07:07:06 AM PDT

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            •  My father's a pediatrician. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              PhilW

              When I was a kid, he made clear that there were two things we'd never be allowed to own while under his roof -- a motorcycle or a BB gun.  He regularly treated patients who had had unfortunate experiences with both things, and there was no way he was going to let his kids near either one.  He didn't care how much training we got or how careful we said we'd be.  The risks associated with guns and motorcycles were just too great.  

              Lots of the other kids in the neighborhood had BB guns, and I always thought my dad was being too restrictive. But unlike the other kids, or some of them, I never got shot.

              My dad's a conservative Republican, but being a doctor made him aware of the real danger guns present.

              "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

              by FogCityJohn on Sat May 04, 2013 at 01:49:04 PM PDT

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        •  I can't think of a single state (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Laconic Lib, PhilW

          that allows you to drive without a license, or allows you a license without some kind of test of your ability to drive a vehicle safely.

          I can't say the same thing about purchasing a gun. And, last I checked, no state allowed toddlers to drive vehicles. But they market and sell guns for children.

      •  Let me put this another way (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        commonmass, DSPS owl, FogCityJohn

        Guns are here to shoot things and most of the time when we shoot things it is to kill them, ergo, guns evolved as killing machines.

        One would THINK that a rational person would be EXTRA CAREFUL with a killing machine.

        And thats why I'd like to see reams of new regulations on storage and safety.

        If Americans were ASSURED they would have their guns confiscated for even minor screw-ups those screw-ups would decrease.

        •  You know, my dad keeps a lot of guns. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          xxdr zombiexx, elmo

          Almost all of them are antiques, some of them valuable. He keeps them locked in a gun safe WITH trigger locks AND locking zippers on the pistol cases. He goes above and beyond what the Commonwealth of Massachusetts mandates for keeping guns at home.

          My dad also doesn't trust ANY other gun owner to be that careful. Of course, he also thinks that most people are idiots, something which he's probably correct about.

          What is truth? -- Pontius Pilate

          by commonmass on Sat May 04, 2013 at 06:51:03 AM PDT

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    •  Although I quite appreciate the sense of what (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      commonmass, xxdr zombiexx

      you just said, xxdr, there was a case that made me think twice about that.  I was watching one of those "Unsolved Mystery" programs one night.  A woman upstairs in her house awoke suddenly and sensed that someone was downstairs.  She hadn't heard a noise--she'd been fast asleep--but she just had this sudden feeling.  She put on her dressing-gown, slipped a gun in her pocket, went downstairs and saw a criminal in her kitchen.

      When he whirled around pointing a gun at her she shot him.  Turned out he was an escaped convict who'd already murdered a couple of people while he was on the lam.

      That was an instance in which having a gun did save her life.  Good for her.  I get so tired of hearing that women have been murdered.  When one fights back I just want to cheer and start flying flags.

      "Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

      by Diana in NoVa on Sat May 04, 2013 at 06:17:03 AM PDT

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      •  The major problem with this issue (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        commonmass

        is not facts but emotionalization.

        There are plenty of incidents to shore up any viewpoint one has.

        What I focus on specifically is that gun did not deter the home invasion. It DID end the home invasion and that, inarguably, IS protection.

        But it's clearly pretty thin: seems like a few moments between victory and victimization.

      •  PS: Glad the bad guy recieved natural and (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        commonmass

        logical consequences.

        •  By the way, I make some very serious (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          xxdr zombiexx

          and pointed criticisms of our gun culture and am very much in favor of some serious, Federal-level gun control in this country. However, I feel compelled to point out that I am also a gun owner.

          What is truth? -- Pontius Pilate

          by commonmass on Sat May 04, 2013 at 07:01:24 AM PDT

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          •  I never replaced my 22 rifle after it was stolen (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            commonmass

            That was 1987.

            I honestly have almost zero interest in a handgun: I have thought maybe of the Taurus Judge chambering a 410 shot shell but that's $600 and I cant shoot it at home, making it nearly worthless to me and yes a serious liability.

            I don't hunt so I never got another rifle.

            I have developed a desire to hunt some boar to put meat in a freezer: my wife make outstanding curried pork and she likes the idea. Will probably need a couple AK-47s and a Barrett to do this.

            Just kidding.... :D

      •  She's lucky she wasn't jailed. She must be white. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Diana in NoVa, FogCityJohn, PhilW

        The whole "defend yourself" thing about guns is all about white privilege and male privilege.

        Women have been imprisoned for firing into a ceiling to stave off abusive boyfriends. Black people have been jailed for Standing Their Ground against white assailants. One trans*woman is facing 20 years for the crime of defending herself against an attacker.

        So no - owning, having or using a gun in self-defense will only be one more piece of evidence against you by a white male justice system that needs to punish the Untermenschen (und Unterdamen) for stepping out of line.

        Thank God, the Bob Fosse Kid is here! - Colin Mochrie

        by gardnerhill on Sat May 04, 2013 at 09:09:06 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  You assume he intended to kill her. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        PhilW

        We don't know what might have happened if she hadn't been awakened and gone down to investigate.  The intruder might just have robbed her house and left.  If so, having a gun would have made no difference.

         In addition, luck saved her life as much as her gun did.  She was fortunate he didn't hear her approaching and was taken by surprise.  Had he heard her, he might have been lying in wait for her and shot her before she ever saw him.

        In short, she was really lucky.  That won't always be the case.

        "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

        by FogCityJohn on Sat May 04, 2013 at 01:59:21 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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