Skip to main content

View Diary: Ignore the inane decrees to "respect" gun culture (245 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  IFF, Respect the White-Out culture, Cuisinart, etc (35+ / 0-)

    Let us be clear.

    There is not, nor can there be, a gun culture. It is not possible to take a device as varied as "gun" and construct culture that has it as its heart. The "gun culture" is supposed to be
    a) men who hunt recreationally,
    b) men who enjoy target practice,
    c) men who believe that guns are political statements.
    We can redefine that as upper middle class white rural and recently urban.

    "Gun culture" is denoting the same thing that "NASCAR dad" did as "Dixiecrat" did as "Angry white male" did. The so-called culture does not cohere, because it is not manufactured by any actual values, and because it does not cohere, it cannot be spoken of coherently. Instead of being a gun "culture," it is a reactionary ideology among the dispossessed and outmoded economic players.

    Whenever economies move on, they chew up the old certainties, and the people who formerly had a certain up and down, good and bad, go reactionary.

    "...ere God made us He loved us; which love was never slacked, nor ever shall be." - Juliana of Norwich

    by The Geogre on Sun May 05, 2013 at 12:25:30 PM PDT

    •  culture can certainly have as its centerpiece a (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      a2nite, Canis Aureus

      certain object or type of object.

      Why not?

      Does mean that everyone with a gun is a member, but some certainly are.

      •  Wouldn't that be fetishization? -- certainly a (14+ / 0-)

        cultural component but not a culture in and of itself.

      •  The object that creates a culture/ritual (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JVolvo, scott5js, lyvwyr101

        Let's take one example: marijuana smoking. The persons involved in it, due to the technology involved and the procedures, have created a material culture in the form of bongs, pipes, and various hookahs. This material culture reflects a ritual celebration. However, the inner city Black kid and the Ivy League white kid share no values or conversation due to their mutual participation in a cultural practice surrounding marijuana.

        Look at another: a subculture of teen rebellion. This is a culture that picks up mandatory objects, like bongs or Jimi Hendrix on black velvet, and the objects have ritual due to the shared values prior to the acceptance or creation of the objects. One kid has a bong, and another has a Che t-shirt, and another has LSD, and another has a strange hair cut, and another has piercings, and they share discussion because their culture came first.

        Gun -!-> culture

        "...ere God made us He loved us; which love was never slacked, nor ever shall be." - Juliana of Norwich

        by The Geogre on Sun May 05, 2013 at 05:24:38 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I dunno if there's a gun culture (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SueM1121, fabucat, bevenro, lyvwyr101

        but there sure as hell is a guitar culture. And, yes, some would call it fetishization. I couldn't care less what you call it :) but we guitarists are a breed apart, and, yes, we have a culture. (Lots of subcultures, too!)

        "Maybe: it's a vicious little word that could slay me"--Sara Bareilles

        by ChurchofBruce on Sun May 05, 2013 at 05:48:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well, I own a couple of guitars among other things (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Dave in Columbus, eagleray, lyvwyr101

          Hell, I own lots of stuff: I'm a homeowner, car owner, 4 computers, art supplies, power tools and there's a violin in there as well.

          I enjoy all my possessions, and they have a place in my life....but I would never form my political thought or activities based on them, like the "gundamentalists" do. It's a sickness IMHO.

          •  Yes- (0+ / 0-)

            and this sickness has now enterd the theatre of the absurd---but the just--as---deadly.

            http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

            Mayan Word For 'Apocalypse' Actually Translates More Accurately As "Time Of Pale Obese Gun Monsters."......the Onion

            by lyvwyr101 on Mon May 06, 2013 at 09:16:12 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I agree with the political thought (0+ / 0-)

            Here's the fetishization part:

            Of all those possessions...let's assume you're house is on fire, and all living beings, people or otherwise, are out of danger. You have enough time to run back in and grab one possession. What do you grab?

            My favorite guitar. NO contest. Not even close. The TVs and computers and even the car if it's in danger can burn. The guitar gets out. In fact, since my bedroom is on the third floor and I'd have to go down two flights of stairs to get out, I'd grab the guitar on the way. And if they had to send a ladder up to get me, I'd see if I can climb down a ladder with a guitar strapped to me :D

            "Maybe: it's a vicious little word that could slay me"--Sara Bareilles

            by ChurchofBruce on Mon May 06, 2013 at 12:43:27 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  gun ownership by women (27+ / 0-)

      is increasing.  Lots of liberals own guns and enjoy recreational shooting.  Generalizing gun culture as "a reactionary ideology among the dispossessed and outmoded economic players" is exactly what Baum refers to as vilification of gun culture, and be extension, gun enthusiasts.  There is a culture, though you don't describe it in any way I recognize.

      I'm a 50 something white woman, an attorney, a public defender- fighting my ass off every day for the indigent accused, and knowing it's a privilege to do so.  I'm way to the left of liberals AND progressives.  I am a lifelong proud Democrat, albeit eternally disappointed by my party's hesitancy to embrace and fight for progressive ideals.  

      I have protested in the street many times against the current wars, and  I have protested in favor of marriage equality, despite being married to a man for decades.  (By the way, he doesn't shoot at all - this is wholly MY avocation.) I have donated lots of money to Democrats in my state, and to the Orange to Blue candidates in the last year or two.  

      I also own two Glocks, a SigSauer P238 rainbow titanium .380 ACP pistol, an AR-15, and a shotgun.  I have a concealed carry permit.   I belong to a regional shooting club for female shooters.  I participate in competitive shooting matches monthly, and I have introduced many liberals to the hobby.  I do NOT belong to the NRA.

      I am not an anomaly, though  certainly in the minority among gun enthusiasts.

      I read Baum's book and though it was pretty good. I was sorry he didn't look for the variety that exists among gun enthusiasts.  He left out a big part of the story.

      Thought you might want to hear from one gun enthusiast who doesn't fit into your rather insulting stereotype.

      •  Insulting Sterotype? (29+ / 0-)

        Boo hoo. Sooooo much worse than being one of the thousands shot dead.

        You gun owners have spent decades creating this mess. You want respect, EARN IT.

        "What could BPossibly go wrong??" -RLMiller "God is just pretend." - eru

        by nosleep4u on Sun May 05, 2013 at 03:58:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  How is that different (12+ / 0-)

          from the GOPers who say "well, all gays are coming for your children-- just look at the pedo-priests as an example!"

          Pedo-priests are engaging in homosexual behavior, but you wouldn't say they are the standard for all homosexuals, would you?

          I've never killed anyone, or wanted to kill anyone, with my weapons. I want to see stricter controls because every shooting makes reasonable gun owners look bad. Sounds like "i love san fran" hasn't shot anyone either. Responsible gun owners are precisely the allies you want in this fight. Vilifying all of us by flinging accusations of murder is self-defeating.

          The internet is ruled by cat people. Dog people are busy playing outside.

          by Canis Aureus on Sun May 05, 2013 at 05:31:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Wow, grasp at straws much? (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Sandino, alba, scott5js, caul, lyvwyr101

            Did pedo priests corrupt the  laws of the united states?

            Was their agenda marketed to and supported by priests throughout the nation?

            No, and no.

            A ridiculous and foolish false equivalence.

            "What could BPossibly go wrong??" -RLMiller "God is just pretend." - eru

            by nosleep4u on Sun May 05, 2013 at 06:22:45 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Seriously, you ask this question? (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              PavePusher, happy camper, ER Doc

              Pedo-priests are able to operate with fucking impunity and the Catholic Church is allowed to deal with the situation as they see fit, internally. The law does not aggressively pursue these guys.

              I mean, seriously? Just because they don't openly ally themselves with NAMBLA and work as an identifiable PAC, they most assuredly do have the law on a leash.

              And do other priests openly support their activities? No, but they sure as hell don't go out of their way to deal with the situation, either. They hold the rug up so the dirt can be swept under, then pretend not to see the lump in the carpet.

              It is a fitting analogy.

              The internet is ruled by cat people. Dog people are busy playing outside.

              by Canis Aureus on Sun May 05, 2013 at 06:28:08 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Tell me what laws the pedo priests (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Sandino, caul, lyvwyr101

                got Congress to pass.

                Cmon, name just one.

                Waiting.

                "What could BPossibly go wrong??" -RLMiller "God is just pretend." - eru

                by nosleep4u on Sun May 05, 2013 at 06:36:03 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Pedo-priests have not, to my knowledge, (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  happy camper, ER Doc, Shamash

                  gotten any laws protecting their behavior passed, but that is not the bar I set when making the analogy. The analogy is that you are taking the scummiest members of gun owners as a social subset and judging all gun owners by their actions-- the same as when the GOP infers that "all gays" are pedos because some gay pedos are high-profile cases in the news with regards to the Church. They are gays, but the worst possible representatives of gay society, that are being used to erroneously malign every homosexual.

                  I never, in my analogy, stated that the Church managed to pass laws "just like the NRA". You added that on.

                  The Church is able to shield people from the law, and the law, as an institution, seems to be okay with that, since there is no active intent to pursue unless one of these cases becomes too big to ignore. I would guess  that a large population of Catholic voters keeps the law passive-- or, at least, the assumed backlash that would result if the Department of Justice started searching churches and questioning priests.

                  Face it, the Church has the DoJ completely on the defensive when it comes to active pursuit of pedo-priests. To pretend otherwise just because the world "laws" wasn't used specifically is to ignore reality.

                  Hell, if you want to play that game, remember that the NRA was the organization responsible for passing the NICS check law in the first place. So if you're going to judge them based solely on "laws passed" then, hey, they're at the forefront of gun control legislation. They've gotten more gun control laws passed that the Brady campaign, even! Sure you want to use that yardstick?

                  The internet is ruled by cat people. Dog people are busy playing outside.

                  by Canis Aureus on Sun May 05, 2013 at 06:47:34 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  They know (0+ / 0-)

              there is no god-damned way in the world to justify these statistics-

              http://www.policymic.com/...

              http://wiki.answers.com/...

              Who in the world can justify this?

              Mayan Word For 'Apocalypse' Actually Translates More Accurately As "Time Of Pale Obese Gun Monsters."......the Onion

              by lyvwyr101 on Mon May 06, 2013 at 09:23:31 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  asdf (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            i love san fran, Sandino, lyvwyr101
            Sounds like "i love san fran" hasn't shot anyone either.
            Neither have most drunk drivers.

            "What could BPossibly go wrong??" -RLMiller "God is just pretend." - eru

            by nosleep4u on Sun May 05, 2013 at 06:37:57 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Wrong..... (5+ / 0-)
            Pedo-priests are engaging in homosexual behavior, but you wouldn't say they are the standard for all homosexuals, would you?
            They are not engaging in "homosexual behavior" -- they are engaging in pedohilia, a whole different class of behavior, and one that is actually a sickness.  

            I should HR you for not knowing (or caring about) the difference.

            Is it courageous to propose tax cuts but not identify a single tax expenditure to rein in? Is it courageous to target your deepest cuts on the poorest Americans, who vote in lower numbers and provide little in campaign contributions?

            by caul on Mon May 06, 2013 at 01:13:46 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  I logged in for the first time in months to rec (34+ / 0-)

        this diary. I'm sorry, but your 'gun enthisiasm' endangers  millions of Americans every year. I will never, ever understand the mentality that must own not one but multiple personal weapons of mass destruction. "Responsible" gun owner? Great. Hope no one ever breaks into your house to steal your mini-arsenal. And hope your deadly weapons are never used against you in a domestic violence incident, as they are in the vast majority of cases. What a sick and pathetic "culture", this "gun culture." Why exactly do you need not one but two Glocks for "target shooting"? Failure to Evolve. And it is destroying this country.

        •  Wow! (18+ / 0-)

          I did think some who automatically equate owning firearms with gun violence might have some interest in hearing from one gun enthusiast who isn't the stereotype many embrace.  But I guess not.  

          I would answer the questions you pose, but it appears you do not care to hear anything a gun owner has to say.  That's OK.  I don't feel any need to explain myself.  As I said, I thought there might be an interest in something beyond the two-dimensional caricature I often see about gun owners here on DKos.

          Eventually the laws will change or they won't.  If laws are passed that ban any guns I own, I will absolutely follow the law and turn them in or whatever the law requires me to do.

          That's because I believe in the rule of law.

          Currently the law allows me to own the firearms I own.  So I do.  

          That is all.

          •  I'm a liberal who owns guns too. I don't shoot (14+ / 0-)

            competitively but I do partially understand the reasons you like to shoot guns.  Many people find it to be fun.  I have been to the shooting range on quite a few occasions in the past.  We lived in Florida for a couple of years and my husband and I were appalled with the cavalier way they ran the joint.  It was just plain dangerous! We got the hell out of there quick and since moved back to CA but we just don't have the desire anymore like my husband gave up hunting 20 years ago, he just doesn't have the heart for it anymore.  Me either.  We will always have a couple of guns but the sick gun culture is destroying our society and making this great country into a war zone.  We have got to change that.  We need to do what Australia did.  IMO

            "Republicans are the party that says that government doesn't work, then they get elected and prove it."-- PJ O'Rourke

            by nocynicism on Sun May 05, 2013 at 05:31:40 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Many of us for gun control are gun owners (8+ / 0-)

            It's a dangerous assumption to believe that people are assuming. I shan't. All I will say is that the face value claim, that there is a "gun culture," and that it therefore demands special status in public debate, is absurd.

            Are there liberals with guns? You bet! I'm one. Now me, I think handguns are for killing people, that they have no other primary function, and anyone wanting home defense would get a .410 shotgun with high numbered shot.

            The fact that there are liberals who are gun owners, lots and lots and lots of them, is proof to some degree that there is no "gun culture" that no one may speak about without passing the shibboleth of an NRA course.

            "...ere God made us He loved us; which love was never slacked, nor ever shall be." - Juliana of Norwich

            by The Geogre on Sun May 05, 2013 at 05:34:12 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  There is undoubtedly a gun culture. Just because (5+ / 0-)

              you don't consider yourself a part of that culture doesn't mean it does not exist. I know many people who actually invoke the police and domestic arms dealers in their fierce defense of the right to own any weapon currently made. Gun manufacturers and the NRA hide behind so-called "responsible" and "moderate" gun owners all the time.

              •  I'd say its more a 'gun religion' for the folks wh (5+ / 0-)

                o claim its a 'culture'.  And the fact that those who don;t worship the gun aren't considered part of the 'culture' kinda proves it imo.

                We don't need another religion, certainly not one that worships a weapon of death.  What next the Mutants in desert worshipping the Big Bomb from Planet of the Apes2?

              •  I think you mean something else (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Silvia Nightshade

                1. "The United States has a gun culture"

                2. "What you're saying is disrespectful of gun owners and the gun culture. You should read my book, when I went out with gun owners and came to see how oppressed they are."

                I deny #2. I don't deny #1.

                I deny that there is a subculture created by guns. Instead, I say that there is a subculture created by reaction to economic stress and expressed through guns, millennialism, heightened intolerance, a sense of victimhood, a resentment of elites. That the same percentages have existed since around 1972 is interesting, but I would argue that they are new populations falling into the same camps.

                The U.S. has had a gun-mad culture since the days of "Dirty Harry." More than that is politics.

                "...ere God made us He loved us; which love was never slacked, nor ever shall be." - Juliana of Norwich

                by The Geogre on Mon May 06, 2013 at 03:57:28 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  funny ... Dan Baum says the same thing. (0+ / 0-)

                  If you'd read the book, or even gone to his website and listened to the interviews, you'd know that.

                  --Shannon

                  "It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." -- Emiliano Zapata Salazar
                  "Dissent is patriotic. Blind obedience is treason." --me

                  by Leftie Gunner on Tue May 07, 2013 at 06:56:28 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  My wife and I each have handguns and their primary (8+ / 0-)

              purpose is to effectively and swiftly neutralize a threat that warrants a lethal force response.   We have them both for defence inside the home and we carry them outside of the home for defence of self.  While we enjoy shooting them and practising marksmanship for recreation, the practice  does revolve around the skills needed to accurately perform their intended function in a time of need.

              •  and remind us how many times you have had (7+ / 0-)

                that need . . . . . .

                I find it amusing that the paranoids ALL wave their arms about the huge pressing need they have to defend themselves from the hordes of homicidal strangers just waiting for them everywhere----yet none of them here have ever had to defend themselves.

                Even as crime statistics already show that if you do absolutely nothing at all whatsoever to "protect" yourself, the odds are tremendously against you ever being attacked by anybody, and those odds go down every year. After all, I carry no gun, and the number of times I have been robbed or attacked is precisely the same number of times you have been---none.

                Methinks their pressing need oh noes !!!!, exists only inside their heads.  The very definition of "paranoia".

                •  Its only paranoia to you because you don't like it (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  CarlosJ

                  Others see it as being prepared.

                •  I have been attacked (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Silvia Nightshade

                  I carry no handgun, and I would carry no handgun.

                  I have been attacked. In 1978, in down town Atlanta, when a group of 11 surrounded my friend and me. They wanted to practice their Kung Fu, too, and their lead pipe skills. Oh, and they threw bottles at the heads of people who ran.

                  They got $40 and a Kodak Instamatic.

                  Now, were my wounds worth a killing? Not really. On the other hand, if I wanted to defend my children or a vulnerable person inside a house, a pump action shotgun is both more effective and more likely to leave an intruder alive.

                  Why would anyone actually want to kill?

                  "...ere God made us He loved us; which love was never slacked, nor ever shall be." - Juliana of Norwich

                  by The Geogre on Mon May 06, 2013 at 04:02:02 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  If being a victim of a crime is so statistically (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  CarlosJ

                  low & being a victim of a crime with a gun is even lower.....and you are twice as likely to be murdered by bare hands than being murdered with a gun covered by the AWB, then why do you support the AWB?

                  Sounds like paranoia to me.

                  Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                  by FrankRose on Mon May 06, 2013 at 07:41:17 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  you can wave your arms all you want, Frank (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    lyvwyr101

                    I've never been robbed or attacked by those homicidal strangers that you seem to think are everywhere.

                    And neither have YOU, Frank.

                    And according to crime statistics, the vast majority of Americans won't be either, whether they pack heat or not.

                    (shrug)

                    But hey Frank, now that you're here, how about if you tell everyone here, again, that you won't vote for any Dem who doesn't support the NRA's positions. Let's see if you can win any more friends. (snicker)

                  •  btw, Frank, if you weren't so oblivious, you'd (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Glen The Plumber, lyvwyr101

                    know that I don't support the AWB.  I'd prefer reclassifying them as Class 3 and requiring permits for them.  How many Class 3 weapons are used in crimes, Frank?  So why don't YOU support Class 3 permits for assault weapons, Frank? (Ohhh, because you're a silly extremist who doesn't support ANY restrictions on ANY gun, because freedomz, period--right?)

                    Come on, Frank, show everyone here one more time just how nutty you really are.

                •  Not to mention (0+ / 0-)

                  the pressing need of these people to continue to exist---the mentioning of which gun-owners do not enjoy responding to---since there is no sane response to it.

                  http://www.policymic.com/...

                  Isn't it amazing how their pressing need to buy and own a gun is more important than the lives of their fellow man---and their fellow woman----and their fellow children?

                  32,000 gun deaths a year.

                  Incomprehensile---unbelieveable----and beneath contempt.

                  Mayan Word For 'Apocalypse' Actually Translates More Accurately As "Time Of Pale Obese Gun Monsters."......the Onion

                  by lyvwyr101 on Mon May 06, 2013 at 09:47:07 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Isn't it amazing how their pressing need of (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    lyvwyr101, CarlosJ

                    requiring a warrant for a wiretap is more important than the lives of their fellow man---and their fellow women---and their fellow children?

                    I assume you find people that don't support warrantless wiretaps to be "beneath contempt" as well.

                    Myself, I don't think that reducing the liberties of innocent Americans for the crimes of murderers is the proper response.
                    Clearly, you disagree.  

                    Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                    by FrankRose on Mon May 06, 2013 at 10:37:47 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Anybody with a brain would. (0+ / 0-)

                      Mayan Word For 'Apocalypse' Actually Translates More Accurately As "Time Of Pale Obese Gun Monsters."......the Onion

                      by lyvwyr101 on Mon May 06, 2013 at 12:21:26 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  2nd "must" mean handguns and the 4th? (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      lyvwyr101

                      This is trolling, man. The 2nd amendment does not have to mean limits on personal ownership are limiting the "well regulated militia." The Heller decision is current case law, and so, for now, "well regulated militia" has gotten a strange read, but American history shows a long, long reading of the 2nd to mean state rights to militia, not personal rights to militarizing and rebelling.

                      The 4th amendment, on the other hand, has been shredded, and your guns won't stop that. To imply a connection is to imply the sort of Freeper-minded fantasy of violence that simply does not belong among the civilized.

                      No, the armed citizens will not make their homes castles. No, they will not get FISA back. No, they will not change the executive. No, they will not change the judiciary. Just plain no. American history: examples of armed rebellion leading to political change vs. examples of non-violent protest leading to change: compare and contrast with examples.

                      "...ere God made us He loved us; which love was never slacked, nor ever shall be." - Juliana of Norwich

                      by The Geogre on Mon May 06, 2013 at 05:44:00 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  The 4th has been shredded. But I don't think (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        andalusi

                        that the answer is to shred another amendment.

                        I don't support the idea of taking individual liberties from innocent Americans because of the crimes of murderers & the ignorance of the frightened.

                        Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                        by FrankRose on Mon May 06, 2013 at 06:40:28 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

        •  This is a pretty sad statistic for them to defend- (0+ / 0-)

          Mayan Word For 'Apocalypse' Actually Translates More Accurately As "Time Of Pale Obese Gun Monsters."......the Onion

          by lyvwyr101 on Mon May 06, 2013 at 09:26:54 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  My firearms do not endanger anyone. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          FrankRose, PavePusher, oldpunk

          Neither do San Fran's.  

          You are predicating the undertaking of rights based on need.  There is nothing liberal about that - tell me when was the last time liberals asked people to demonstrate need to: protest, assemble, practice a religion or not, marry the person they love, vote, or any other fundamental human right?

          No, you fear something you don't understand and you mock it and wish it to be repressed by law.  That is the exact opposite reaction of an open and tolerant mind.

          Humanity has misused everything under the sun to harm others and the liable party remains the same in all - the individual who acts to harm others not the tool they choose.

          •  My drunk driving has never harmed anybody n/t (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Glen The Plumber
          •  Let's have a room full of asbestos, then (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Glen The Plumber

            After all, the fibers will not cause mesothelioma for most of the people who breathe them in. How dare the gummint restrict the freedom of people to line their rooves with the stuff?

            Your handgun, in your possession, may be of no danger, but that is so long as it remains in your possession. Once it is stolen or sold, it remains a potent weapon for killing people. Its primary design was for concealment and portability and lethality, not long range accuracy.

            A proliferation of items, each of which has a primary design for concealment and killing, is going to increase the lethality of accidents, first, and of crimes of passion, second, and suicides, third.

            "...ere God made us He loved us; which love was never slacked, nor ever shall be." - Juliana of Norwich

            by The Geogre on Mon May 06, 2013 at 05:49:07 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  The question I have for you (11+ / 0-)

        is whether you, as a gun enthusiast, would accept laws that  require background checks for gun purchases?  Or laws limiting magazine size?  Or any of the modest proposals to curb gun violence?  You mention that you aren't a member of the NRA and I applaud you for that.  

        While I am not personally interested in guns, I have no problem whatsoever with genuine hobbyists.   I wish that more of them would speak out against the NRA-inspired extremists.

        It's the Supreme Court, stupid!

        by Radiowalla on Sun May 05, 2013 at 05:14:40 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I dismiss the culture that you're not? (9+ / 0-)

        I point out that Baum's terminology is just another bit of propaganda. He wants to say that no one may say anything about guns, because it's a separate "culture."

        You believe you genuinely have a culture, thanks to your pistols?

        I have my shotgun, and I don't share ANY values with the frenzied horrors that Baum is trying to protect. Neither my gun, nor yours, made an ideology. Neither mine nor yours made a value set. Neither mine nor yours constituted a set of beliefs. Most emphatically of all, neither mine nor yours makes us a CLASS or "culture."

        Now, if you think that those two pistols made you One with the Bubba class, then that's cool. I know that I'm all for gun control, my gun ownership notwithstanding.

        "...ere God made us He loved us; which love was never slacked, nor ever shall be." - Juliana of Norwich

        by The Geogre on Sun May 05, 2013 at 05:30:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  interesting... (9+ / 0-)

          I do live in an extremely conservative rural county in Central California, so by necessity I have learned to live with the so-called Bubba class.   I wouldn't say I'm One with them, but I do like many of them.  When I lived in San Francisco for some decades, I thought this group was barely out of the ooze, so the speak.  But after quite a few years here, I've learned that "people are people, wherever you go."   (Don't remember who said it first, but I like it.)

          •  You bet (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            i love san fran

            I'm living in the country, and I grew up Bubba, so I believe in the culture. That means believing in its weak sides as well, its ugliness, its blindness, and not trying to protect those in the name of victimhood.

            I do not want to come off as hostile to you. I am very hostile to Baum.

            When folks around Kos talk about "the South," they usually speak out of ignorance and hopeless generalization. So, too, someone who speaks of a gun making one empathetic and a spokesperson for the rural and conservative areas. Baum's not much different from those fools who'd go to a NASCAR race and say that they could report on what "red America" thought.

            When I say that "red America" is a reactionary position, this is not without sympathy.

            "...ere God made us He loved us; which love was never slacked, nor ever shall be." - Juliana of Norwich

            by The Geogre on Mon May 06, 2013 at 03:51:45 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Yep, trying to hijack 'multiculturalism' to shut u (6+ / 0-)

          p liberals and others who favor gun safety laws.

          Pretty blatant about too imo.

      •  well, I'll match that . . . . . (10+ / 0-)

        Grew up in a rural area in eastern Pennsylvania, a little village called Stockertown, in the Lehigh Valley Allentown-Bethlehem-Easton area. Started shooting (BB gun) at age 8, had my own shotgun (.410) at age 11, and a 30-30 rifle at age 13. Learned to shoot mostly by hunting groundhogs with my dad's .222 .  Didn't hunt for fun--hunted for food. Whether we had meat in the spaghetti sauce depended directly on how good a shot I was. I was a good shot.  We had lots of spaghetti sauce. Gave up hunting as soon as we no longer needed it, still enjoyed target-shooting ever since. Currently own a Walther PPK in .380 caliber, used solely for target shooting (I'm not paranoid enough to need or want to use it for "self-defense", and have zero need or interest in a CCW). Shot for shot, rifle or pistol, I'll take on any NRA loudmouth at the range and whoop his ass.

        My interest in politics began in 1973 when I was an 11 year old kid living in Rapid City, South Dakota (my dad was going to college there and had moved the whole family out for a year). In February 1973, right around my birthday, the American Indian Movement took over Wounded Knee. I supported them completely, which led to some lifelong lessons about racist bigots and how they react to people.

        My first arrest was in 1983, at an anti-Grenada-invasion protest in Washington DC. Since then, I've been arrested over a dozen times--in DC, Philadelphia, New York. Did a stint in Nicaragua as a short-term delegate for Witness for Peace during the Contra War in 1988, and worked with CISPES and the Central America Peace Campaign. Worked with numerous labor, environmental, consumer and anti-war groups throughout the 80's and 90's, including the Pennsylvania Public Interest Coalition, PIRG, Sierra Club, Greenpeace, and dozens of political campaigns. Served two terms as the Co-Chair of the General Executive Board of the Industrial Workers of the World (IWW--the Wobblies), and did organizing work for SEIU. Founded Red and Black Publishers, which publishes and reprints books on social activism and social justice. Helped form Occupy St Petersburg, FL.  Last time I saw my FBI file it was 20-ish pages long, but that was pre-Occupy, so I'm sure a few pages have been added since then. In general, my politics are somewhere to the left of Che Guevara.

        And I think the "gun culture" (other than plain ole target-shooting enthusiasts, who have nothing to do with "gun culture"--target shooting being an Olympic level sport after all) consists mostly of paranoids with an outsized fear that everyone everywhere is out to get them, and a secret superhero complex and wish that they turn out to be the hero of the day. I fully support the severe restriction and regulation of all guns.

        Do I fit the stereotype?

      •  When they outsource my job (6+ / 0-)

        I'll have to sell my guns anyway just to pay the bills.

        My guns won't protect me from the things that really scare me.

        If the pilot's good, see, I mean if he's reeeally sharp, he can barrel that baby in so low... oh you oughta see it sometime. It's a sight. A big plane like a '52... varrrooom! Its jet exhaust... frying chickens in the barnyard!

        by Major Kong on Sun May 05, 2013 at 06:52:58 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  First the gold, then the guns (0+ / 0-)

          When I couldn't make rent, it was the college class ring. After that was going to be the shotgun. I still have it, though, thanks to the freaked out gold bugs.

          "...ere God made us He loved us; which love was never slacked, nor ever shall be." - Juliana of Norwich

          by The Geogre on Mon May 06, 2013 at 05:53:47 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Woman are not increasingly (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        caul, lyvwyr101

        Owning guns. This s a myth based on dubious evidence.

        In fact, if you look outside the Deep South, the number of women who own guns is incredibly small. In my experience, these women often have an unhealthy desire to please the men around them and to play at being a boy. It's quite odd.

      •  Imagine if guns were a drug (10+ / 0-)

        You're a lawyer. Imagine a drug marketed to families as a necessary panacea against dying at any age. Without this drug, you or your family might die at any moment! cry the TV ads. If you consider yourself a good mother, you cannot allow yourself to be without this drug! If you consider yourself a real man, you cannot allow your family to face the risk of your not giving them this drug! Imagine that marketing plan.

        Now imagine this drug is on the market for 50 years. In that time, it specifically and undeniably kills 100,000 American every year. Many of those deaths are due to abuse of the drug, many deaths are "accidental," many are the result of the drug being used to commit suicide, and many are the result of the drug being used to poison individuals and groups. When used properly and legally, this drug saves the lives of a few hundreds of people every year.

        The FDA and congress have seen fit to make this drug an OTC brand, free to buy and dispense without prescription. Free to give to children without a doctor's order. Free to give, sell or trade by anyone at any time without restriction.

        Do you really imagine this drug would remain on the market for very long? Do you imagine it would remain unrestricted? That it's sale and trade would remain unregulated and even unrecorded? Do you really imagine the manufacturer would remain free from myriad lawsuits for wrongful death?

        You're a lawyer. Can you honestly imagine this scenario? A drug that kills tens of thousands and saves the lives of only a handful when used properly.

        It would never happen. If not banned outright, the drug would be carefully regulated, severely restricted, and available only under the most strictly controlled conditions. And this would be true of any product that fit those parameters.

        So why do guns get the pass they do? The second amendment? Don't be absurd. The second is not holy writ and even holy writ has restraints. Not to mention the other 26 amendments that face extreme and wide-rangeing regulation (not to mention that the 16th amendment which is particularly loathed by many of the very same people who seem to feel that the second half of the second amendment was tattooed by Jesus himself on the very heart of God).

        Why do guns get the pass they do? Why should they?

        •  Guns are a TOOL, nothing more. Not a drug, not (0+ / 0-)

          a 'culture'.  We demand safety with any tool.  You not allowed to go around bands your silver hammer on folks' head.  The more dangerous the tool, even if just potential danger, the more we demand of its users and the more we regulate its use to mitigate danger.  See, cars.

          Guns, however, have been fetishized in a way that no other tool I can think of has.  Imagine if folks were outlawing car regislation just so we could check backgrounds to make sure no one medically unable to drive safely got a car? That's were we are with guns.

          Now, we actually have a 'car culture', but anyone who took that position would be laughed into shameful irrelevance.  

          So this wanna Oz can stuff him lame attempt to excuse the g-unsanity by appropriating 'culture' for what in any other case of extreme fetishism might be considered a neurosis, at least.

        •  The free pass- (0+ / 0-)

          Mayan Word For 'Apocalypse' Actually Translates More Accurately As "Time Of Pale Obese Gun Monsters."......the Onion

          by lyvwyr101 on Mon May 06, 2013 at 10:01:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Why would people who hunt for (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      caul, CarlosJ

      survival not be considered part of that culture?

      Gondwana has always been at war with Laurasia.

      by AaronInSanDiego on Sun May 05, 2013 at 07:08:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'll be more than happy to vilify "gun guys". (5+ / 0-)

      People who wax on about their precious, precious guns and their supposed "right" to own an arsenal are creepy losers with penis issues.

      Target practice can be fun; keep the gun locked up at the range.

      Hunting can help feed your family, and, properly done, engender respect for animals and the environment. But any hunter who needs an assault rifle totally fucking sucks at it.

      Those "RKBA" people here at DK are not progressives.

    •  I'm not sure about that, but at minimum (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      caul

      I think the phrase "gun culture" is ill fitting and misused.  If one wants to describe the type exemplified by NRA leadership recently, then I think this guy has a good point:

      This translates into an overpowering Country Music/Southern Baptist cultural slant in the NRA, and it’s a major turn-off to most non-rural, non-evangelical gun owners. It also ignores the fact that many of the organization’s most effective spokesmen (like Charlton Heston and Tom Selleck) have been successful ambassadors precisely BECAUSE they’re not simply preaching to the rural, evangelical choir.

      Blacks and Latinos definitely aren’t the only NRA members who feel less than 100% welcome when the country music starts blaring and the Tea Party/evangelical vibe starts thrumming through the convention.

      I’ve got no bone to pick with other people’s faiths or their favorite music, but I personally didn’t sign up to join the National Country Music Tea Party Southern Baptist Rifle Association.

      I'm not liberal. I'm actually just anti-evil, OK? - Elon James White

      by Satya1 on Sun May 05, 2013 at 09:03:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site