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View Diary: Immigration reform hits the Senate this week (86 comments)

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  •  The "path" to citizenship (1+ / 0-)
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    helfenburg

    The "path" to citizenship is a 13 year process that involves a fine and denial of any benefits for the whole period---little more than wage slavery for many.  How is that the "liberal" side of this debate?  

    •  It is the liberal side.... (0+ / 0-)

      because the status quo is that they get deported don't have access to drivers license, schools, police, or the courts etc etc.

      We only think nothing goes without saying.

      by Hamtree on Mon May 06, 2013 at 10:38:03 AM PDT

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      •  that is the status quo if you accept the Repub (1+ / 0-)

        idea of deporting 11 million people as what we're currently planning on doing right now. which is not true.

        that's not a "status quo" it's what the Republicans want to do, and even George W. Bush(!) told them it was never gonna happen. why do you accept that idea as "the status quo", especially since its the oppositions idea? did you think that actually shortening the process down to a couple years would have been absolutely impossible because of the "political reality"?

        a a decades-long, complicated, drawn out immigration application process is what the actual status quo is. keeping it a 10+ year process, plus fines and penalties, in exchange for Not Deporting Them All isn't really doing anything but barely staving off the Deport Them All obsession, and it can hardly be called "reform" of the immigration process.

        "not deporting them all" may be the "liberal" part of the reform but that's pretty weak sauce.

        Banking on the American people to be able to sort all this out and declare the adult in the room the winner is a very big bet. -Digby

        by Boogalord on Mon May 06, 2013 at 10:57:23 AM PDT

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    •  That's what I'm wondering. When does the path (1+ / 0-)

      to citizenship become so long, so arduous that it isn't even worth it?   It can't be justified on the grounds that it will take care of the 11 million undocumented immigrants currently in the country, because it won't take care of them really at all.  Or it will in 13 years and after they pay thousands of dollars.  I think everything about this bill is lousy.  It doesn't help anyone except businesses that want cheap, more easily exploitable labor.  As usual....

      The elevation of appearance over substance, of celebrity over character, of short term gains over lasting achievement displays a poverty of ambition. It distracts you from what's truly important. - Barack Obama

      by helfenburg on Mon May 06, 2013 at 10:46:58 AM PDT

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      •  Where is the sweet spot (0+ / 0-)

        Between penalties in fines and increased time to citizenship that is more than a slap on the wrist for breaking immigration laws and onerous penalties that are unfair?

        •  not so much money, as time (0+ / 0-)

          i'm sure most immigrants would gladly pay some sort of fine penalty to come and get this whole immigration thing sorted out in a couple years. a 10+ year application process is daunting no matter what, especially with fines and penalties and no benefits.

          just to pull a number out of my ass, let's say $500. a $500 fine over a two-year application process. the whole process is going to take alot of money, so it will be necessarily along with the "slap on the wrist" that isn't a ten-year ball and chain. plus increased border security, whatever.

          my point is, the "sweet spot" isn't so muddy and ambiguous that nobody has any idea what something reasonable would look like. something that would tackle an application process for current illegal immigrants, a reform of the actual immigration process, and protections for US workers

          Banking on the American people to be able to sort all this out and declare the adult in the room the winner is a very big bet. -Digby

          by Boogalord on Mon May 06, 2013 at 11:24:23 AM PDT

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          •  It's 13 years just to apply for citizenship. (0+ / 0-)

            Then you have to wait while your application is processed.  That can take over a decade, from what I read.  You could die waiting to get citizenship.

            I think it's an incredibly lousy law.  Lousy for the undocumented and lousy for the rest of us who have to work for a living.  And I cannot see why I should support it or the party that is promoting it.

            The elevation of appearance over substance, of celebrity over character, of short term gains over lasting achievement displays a poverty of ambition. It distracts you from what's truly important. - Barack Obama

            by helfenburg on Tue May 07, 2013 at 03:34:31 AM PDT

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