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  •  Aren't you missing something here? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    FrankRose

    Home invasions and violent crime went up.

    How's that help anyone?  Sure I may not get killed by a gun but have you ever been the victim of a violent crime and had to live with it?

    How does trading one evil for another actually solve society's problems?

    Besides when comparing nation to nation, you're comparing apples to oranges.  Japan has a higher rate of suicide than we do.  The UK's serious crime is almost 5 times that of ours.

    Add to that not one of those other countries have the people agreed that "keeping and bearing arms" is an individual right.

    How do we work within the system we currently have?

    What solutions do you suggest will reduce violence, including "gun violence"?

    Will your solution include addressing recidivism?

    Will your solution include monies to fund mental health, living wage jobs, ending the racist drug war, etc?

    -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

    by gerrilea on Tue May 07, 2013 at 02:40:01 AM PDT

    •  H4 (14+ / 0-)

      http://www.dailykos.com/...

      Why should any solution also have to be responsible for non-gun violence, living wage jobs, etc? That's ridiculous. Should we never try to solve any problem unless the solution also includes a cure for cancer?

      ....no longer in SF.... -9.00, -7.38

      by TFinSF on Tue May 07, 2013 at 03:51:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  So, no adult conversation will be had here. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        FrankRose

        What's ridiculous is your bigotry.

        Clearly you have no desire to actually address the problems your "precious" gun control has brought us.

        http://www.dailykos.com/...

        -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

        by gerrilea on Tue May 07, 2013 at 05:45:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And you... (5+ / 0-)

          have no desire to actually address the problems your "precious" guns have brought us.

          As you have demonstrated in comment after comment in diary after diary.

          Your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore. John Prine -8.00,-5.79

          by Miss Blue on Tue May 07, 2013 at 06:43:49 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Really "Miss Blue", had you actually read any (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            FrankRose

            of my diaries or comments, you'd know I've never owned a firearm AND I have presented my suggested solutions to the violence in this nation.

            You all don't want to make real honest policy decisions that will actually help all of us, I do.

            Therein lays the difference.  

            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

            by gerrilea on Tue May 07, 2013 at 07:50:47 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Bigotry!? (4+ / 0-)

          Hello.  My name is Coquiero.  I am a gun bigot.

          Because I want everyone to go through a background check, and I want some regulations on certain types of guns and gun accessories that make it easy to kill a lot of people at once.  That's some dark oppression and hatred right there.

          I am also a Christian bigot, because I call people who actively campaign against LGBT issues bigots, so that makes me a bigot against their religion.

          I think you guys need to coin that phrase.  Forget about "gun grabbers", you should just call us "gun bigots"!  It's much more descriptive.  And shows how far off the beaten path you have gone.

          I blog about my daughter with autism at her website

          by coquiero on Tue May 07, 2013 at 07:24:06 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The sad thing is, (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            coquiero, rigcath

            they will compare the "bigotry" that gun owners suffer as being the same or similar to the bigotry LGBT folks suffer.  It's mystifying.

            "I don't want a unicorn. I want a fucking pegasus. And I want it to carry a flaming sword." -mahakali overdrive

            by Silvia Nightshade on Tue May 07, 2013 at 07:29:40 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  ??? Have you not been paying attention??? (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Texas Lefty, FrankRose

              As a transgendered woman, I am part of that LGBT group.

              Which makes me just as qualified as anyone else to speak on these issues.

              The facts are that I do not agree with your "solutions" under our Constitutional Republic.

              -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

              by gerrilea on Tue May 07, 2013 at 07:57:35 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You're allowed to disagree with me. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                coquiero

                My problem is saying gun owners are an oppressed minority just the same or close to the way LGBT folks are oppressed.  I just don't see how they are remotely similar.

                "I don't want a unicorn. I want a fucking pegasus. And I want it to carry a flaming sword." -mahakali overdrive

                by Silvia Nightshade on Wed May 08, 2013 at 06:30:57 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I'm not the one that made that comparison. (0+ / 0-)

                  You and Coquiero did.

                  A strawman to attack perhaps?

                  -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                  by gerrilea on Wed May 08, 2013 at 09:28:24 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Oh Jesus dude, (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    coquiero

                    I wasn't attacking anyone.  I was expressing my frustration with this particular argument that Coquiero brought up because I have seen it numerous times on DKos.  I can go dredge up links if you think I'm full of shit but I have a migraine and I'm not in the mood.

                    Just call me an asshole and HR me already if that will make you feel better, Christ.

                    "I don't want a unicorn. I want a fucking pegasus. And I want it to carry a flaming sword." -mahakali overdrive

                    by Silvia Nightshade on Wed May 08, 2013 at 09:57:10 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  There is no "beaten path" here. You lost round (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Texas Lefty, FrankRose

            one on the gun control issue.  Wasting months of bickering, arguing and attacking anyone who does not agree with your solution(s).  Where did it get us? Further divided and distrustful of one another while accomplishing NOTHING!

            As a transgendered woman, Conquiero, I believe that all religions should be banned or severely restricted.  But what stops my desires from becoming law?  The Constitution.  

            I've faced religions hatred and violence my entire life.  I've been assaulted, beaten, robbed and when I go to the police, what do they do? NOTHING!  "Well, if you didn't dress that way there wouldn't be a problem!"

            Your one-dimensional "solution" that denies those of us from legitimate discussion and participation in this process IS bigotry just like the religious zealots.  You are no better than they are.  It's the same hatred and the same emotional manipulation that denies our society the ability to progressively move forward.  

            My goal has always been Equity Under Law.  When you present a solution that includes "the restrictions" being made across the board for all Americans,  NO exceptions for LEO, the Military, the Secret Service, etc, then I'll listen.

            Up until that time you'll be wasting more lives by not actually addressing humanities violent nature as is revealed in our American Society today...  

            I am not safe from the Christian down the street whom thinks I should burn in hell.  I'm not safe from the institutionalized misogynistic policies of our created government.  

            Are any of us safe from the rape and pillaging of the Military Industrial Complex that sucks a trillion dollars a year from us all?  Are any of us safe from the School to Prison Pipeline that has become a self-feeding monster perpetuated by the Banksters that leads to a more violent culture and society?

            NOPE.  

            While it's great to hear that we may have common ground, it's you that has gone off the "beaten" path here, not me.  I've been paying attention and I don't get easily distracted by shinny objects.

            Guns didn't create these societal problems we face and "restricting" them won't fix them either.

            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

            by gerrilea on Tue May 07, 2013 at 08:28:20 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  gerrilea (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              rigcath

              I am ridiculously sorry that you have faced hatred and violence.  I say that with nothing but sincerity.

              But when you say things like this:

              Your one-dimensional "solution" that denies those of us from legitimate discussion and participation in this process IS bigotry just like the religious zealots.  You are no better than they are.  It's the same hatred and the same emotional manipulation that denies our society the ability to progressively move forward.  
              let's just say it gets in the way of having any kind of conversation at all.  I am no better than religious zealots because I want people to be subjected to a background check and have limited magazine sizes?

              Listen to yourself.  When I say that you have veered off the beaten track, this is precisely what I am referring to.

              I blog about my daughter with autism at her website

              by coquiero on Tue May 07, 2013 at 08:42:59 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  There never was any conversation here. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                FrankRose

                Just a lot of emotionally manipulative arguments and ad homimens meant to shut anyone up that doesn't agree with your solutions.

                What part of Equity Under Law do you not understand?  

                Seriously.  

                How will your precious gun control be constitutionally cognizable with the Miller Decision?  If you don't make the ban or restrictions universal?  Meaning every American including LEO, military etc.

                You'll waste years of continuing the status quo and more people will die.  How's that a legitimate position again?

                We have all the tools we need right now.  EDUCATE our children with critical logical thinking skills.  Teach them peaceful resolution to conflicts.  Act peacefully as a society (ending the death penalty, ending the racist drug war) and as a nation (ending unfunded resource wars).

                Unless we address how we are manipulated into being a violent society, no one will be any safer.  

                Why won't you address these things?  Fear? Hatred? Have you no ability to think critically?  Why do you accept the media's "solution" of how and not why people are violent?  Laziness? What?

                The British have finally figured that out:


                http://www.dailymail.co.uk/...

                        The UK violent rate of 2034 per 100,000.
                        Australia 1677 per 100,00.
                        South Africa 1,609 per 100,000
                        Canada 935 per 100,000

                        The U.S. has a violence rate of 466 crimes per 100,000 residents.

                    -cut-

                        Shadow Home Secretary Chris Grayling said: 'This is a damning indictment of this government's comprehensive failure over more than a decade to tackle the deep rooted social problems in our society, and the knock on effect on crime and anti-social behaviour.

                Why can't we learn from their mistakes?  Why are we being misdirected and divided????

                I tried to point this problem out in this diary and was lambasted for it.

                You see, my position has never changed here.  I want to wake up in a nation where my fellow Americans don't feel the need to own a firearm or will use violence as their first and only solution to their problems.

                We need to stop criminalizing people.  JUST STOP IT!  The vicious cycle will never end and will never be corrected until we do.  Banning assault weapons, magazine sizes and UBC will give the Prison Industrial Complex a new clientele base for generations.  Is that what you want????  More generations of Americans economically, socially and politically oppressed by our Corporate Overlords????

                I don't.

                Have a great day, this is the end of my rant, for now.

                -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                by gerrilea on Tue May 07, 2013 at 09:52:29 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I don't think you're defending what you think you (0+ / 0-)

                  are.

                  You are aligning yourself with a group of people who do not have the same end goal in mind as you do.

                  I read what your wrote, tried to push aside the attacks on my moral character, and I can see what your point is, but I'm telling you that you are arguing for the same thing as the RBKAers but for entirely different reasons.

                  Doing away with gun regulations isn't going to stop criminalizing people.  

                  I must say that I have never before seen the argument that we need to do away with gun regulations to attain a peaceful society.  That's  a new one.

                  Also, I agree that universal background check should mean just that.

                  I blog about my daughter with autism at her website

                  by coquiero on Tue May 07, 2013 at 10:16:29 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  "I must say that I have never before seen the" (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    PavePusher

                    argument..."

                    The reason why you never saw it before is because I didn't say that, a strawman.

                    Your moral character was brought when up said you were a "gun bigot".  You tried to defend your "morality" and I didn't fall for it.  The emotions, the hatred and authoritarian mentality are no different than any other bigot.  I see it for what it is, nothing more or less.  

                    As for "aligning myself" with others.  The one thing we have in common is the Constitution and how we perceive it as the rules our government must follow.  It limits our government's actions, not ours.

                    As I mentioned above, I detest all religions and believe they should be banned.  I won't get what I want even if I attempted an Article V solution, it won't happen.  Does this mean that I should degrade and attempt to deny those from exercising that right? Nope.  I'm a spiritual person that was once like them, I'm a recovering Catholic, so I can empathize with their beliefs.  They have every right to believe whatever the wish, even if it means my death, sadly.

                    But I can educate my fellow Americans into seeing me as their equal.  I can show them through a lifetime of exposure that "Hey, she's just like me!"  I can show them that their beliefs intentionally spread fear and hatred and hurt me far worse than if they put a bullet in my head.  I can try to change the world, one person at a time. There are many that cannot see past their own bigotry to even allow me a moment to exist, that's what I detest the most.

                    A closed mind.

                    Same goes with the 2nd Amendment.  I believe we all have that individual right.  I know, for me, a firearm is meant for one thing, killing and I would pull the trigger if it came down to my life or yours.  I chose not to be a killer. That's my choice to make, not yours.  I've learned through the years that violence is easy and the escalation of violence even easier.  It's as easy as pulling the trigger, but that trigger doesn't pull itself.

                    My fellow RKBA members have proven that they know and understand that reality better than anyone else here.  They actually understand that the violence comes from the person not the object they wield.

                    And in that vain, I wholeheartedly agree.  If we are to progressively evolve as a society, and as a species, we must change ourselves.  

                    I cannot stop people from believing what they do.  

                    I cannot stop someone from pulling the trigger.

                    But WE can teach them, together.

                    We can give every American the tools they need to be successful Adults and then treat them that way.

                    We, as a nation, must demand that our government follow the rules we gave it.  The expansion and protection of rights to all people, not their abrogation.

                    In short, we must demand Equity Under Law if we are to move beyond the status quo. We must teach it and live it.

                    You know what then? I won't care if my fellow Americans have the capacity to kill hundreds in seconds, why? Because I know they won't hurt me intentionally.

                    I know that they will value my life as much as they value their own because I am their equal.

                    -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                    by gerrilea on Tue May 07, 2013 at 11:35:31 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Well, all I can say is what my mother used to (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      TFinSF

                      tell me,  "People know you by the company you keep."

                      As for "aligning myself" with others.  The one thing we have in common is the Constitution and how we perceive it as the rules our government must follow.
                      That's just pure bullshit.  That somehow the constitution belongs to you and the RKBAers and the rightwing goofballs wearing bad hats with teabags taped to them.

                      I believe in the constitution.  It's mine as much as yours.

                      I blog about my daughter with autism at her website

                      by coquiero on Tue May 07, 2013 at 11:44:02 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  ROFL, so now you say I'm guilty because of (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        PavePusher

                        the company I keep?

                        Do you not understand that your false logic has no bearing on me?

                        Hon, where did I say that the constitution was mine????  You failed at reading comprehension.  I said we shared how we view the Constitution, get it???

                        Where did I say I was a teabagger?

                        Where did I say I was a rightwing goofball?

                        Prima Facia evidence that your bigotry is no different than the religious zealots amongst us.

                        So much for your "moral superiority", when confronted with legitimate conversation, you belittle and attack to hide your failure to address the subject.

                        LMFAO.

                        Have a good day.

                        -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                        by gerrilea on Tue May 07, 2013 at 11:52:58 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  You just created another Strawman... (0+ / 0-)

                        but this one is quite... flaccid.

                        What you said:

                        That somehow the constitution belongs to you and the RKBAers and the rightwing goofballs wearing bad hats with teabags taped to them.

                        What she said (and you even quoted it...):

                        The one thing we have in common is the Constitution and how we perceive it as the rules our government must follow.
                        Your "translation" fails badly.

                        Your hate-mail will be graded.

                        by PavePusher on Wed May 08, 2013 at 11:43:09 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Not even close (0+ / 0-)

                          Jesus, read your own comment.

                          If you and your ilk have in common "the Constitution and how we perceive it as the rules our government must follow", then logically she is claiming that I DON'T have that in common with you.

                          Hence my claim that you and she seem to think that your belief in the Constitution is somehow purer than mine.

                          That's total bullshit.

                          So my comment was totally appropriate and right on the money.

                          I blog about my daughter with autism at her website

                          by coquiero on Wed May 08, 2013 at 11:59:21 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

      •  The logic is ridiculous. They'd have us do nothing (7+ / 0-)

        about anything unless it solved everything. It's like some demented, passive aggressive nihilism.

        •  You lost the first round, now what do you suggest? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          PavePusher

          Continuing your temper tantrum of ad hominem's will not solve the problems.

          Maybe we should start from the beginning and define the problem.  I view our problem(s) as one created by the policies coming out of DC that have oppressed millions forcing us all into abject poverty creating the conditions for violence.  Policies that were codified when we lost control of the House in the 90's due to the first AWB.

          You'd have the argument be only about "gun violence"...a canard because it's actually gone down in the last 40 yrs.

          You've been distracted by the shinning objects and fail to admit that we destroyed ourselves by allowing the republicans to take control of our government.

          They stripped social programs and started unfunded resource wars, shipped our living wage jobs to slave-labored nations, increased the racist war on drugs and the accompanying social destruction it brought and then you blame it all on the gun?

          Who you kidding?

          Now you try to label me to avoid responsibility.  What's it gotten you?

          NOTHING.

          I expected rational minds to accept defeat and move onto things that will actually help all of us.  Say like ending NAFTA, GATT and our participation in the WTO, creating living wage jobs and funding social programs that will allow us to remain in power WHILE doing the right thing.

          What a novel idea, Democrats actually doing the right thing for a change.

          You just want the easy answer.  What would happen if you got every firearm in America removed?  Well, sure there wouldn't be any gun deaths, but would that stop people from killing each other by other means?  Would it stop the 600,000+ attempted suicides each year?  Would it address the despair and poverty that kill 133,000 American each and every year?

          NOPE.

          Get back to me when you wake up and want to discuss these things honestly.

          So much for that "passive aggressive" bullshit, I was being polite.

          Now you can either shit or get off the pot.  And stay out of the way from those of us that will demand the right things be done.  Those of us that will get more AND better Democrats elected, not the corporate lapdogs that pretend at "caring", just enough to the next election.

          -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

          by gerrilea on Tue May 07, 2013 at 01:13:09 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  "Accept defeat?" (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TFinSF

            Because a bill failed to pass the house?  We should--what--all go crawl up under a rock whimpering and moaning?

            What political process are you part of?  That's not the one I'm part of.

            You really amp up the hyperbole when people don't agree with you, don't you?

            You seem deeply concerned about poverty and mental health issues.  I agree with you.  Let's continue to work on those.

            One is not exclusive of the other.  That's all several commenters, including myself, are trying to say here.

            And please, dial back the righteous indignation.

            I blog about my daughter with autism at her website

            by coquiero on Tue May 07, 2013 at 03:48:34 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Just saw this posting, what you perceive I'm (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              PavePusher

              saying and what I've said are not the same things.

              The bills failed the Senate, not the House.  You are whimpering and moaning and still playing your Bingo Game because you will not address these issues maturely.  Playing games isn't productive or mature.

              And you all still ignore the fact that we can accomplish the same things without gun control but for whatever reasons REFUSE TO.

              Then you tell me to dial back the indignation I feel at your folly?  PEOPLE are still dying.  WASN'T the argument about "saving the children"???

              Clearly when it comes down to it, it wasn't about saving anyone and I can only conclude you only want the guns and all that moral righteousness of stopping "gun violence" was a red herring.

              WE can still do things that will save lives and all you can do is attack me personally, even after you lost the vote on gun control?

              I don't believe any of you any longer.  I will be printing these replies out and saving them as a reference point for any future "discussions"...  After the next mass shootings or needless and preventable deaths...

              You were given the opportunity to make a difference and chose not to.

              -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

              by gerrilea on Wed May 08, 2013 at 05:39:26 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I can't take you seriously (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                TFinSF

                Your comments are silly and meaningless.  I don't say this to attack you, I'm just saying that your comments are so over the top and out of order as to be comical.

                You seem to conflate every commenter who would like any measure of gun control into one person.  Until you get a more nuanced way of relating here, I'm afraid it's hopeless.

                I blog about my daughter with autism at her website

                by coquiero on Wed May 08, 2013 at 07:50:02 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Do you mean I must use your techniques of (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  PavePusher, wishbone

                  false logic including poisoning the well, ad homimens, innuendo and sly insults? Is that the "nuanced way of relating" you want?

                  Didn't you conflate my position as being like a rightwing goofball?

                  Oh, that's right, you did.

                  Didn't you then accuse me of "hanging with the wrong crowd" and quote your dear Mother?

                  Oh, that's right, you did.

                  Now you say trying to save lives by other means than your "precious" gun control is "silly and meaningless".

                  If that don't take the cake here.  

                  I took the time to explain my position in detail and you this is your answer.

                  I guess all you really wanted was the guns after all.

                  Have a great day.

                  -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                  by gerrilea on Wed May 08, 2013 at 08:10:02 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  As my kids say (0+ / 0-)

                    whatev's.

                    You haven't explained anything!  All you've done is yell at me and tell me what I think.  Incorrectly, of course.

                    But you are convinced that you are righteous and I am a gun grabber, so that's fine.

                    The fact is your opinion of me has no bearing on anything, so as I said, whatev's.

                    I blog about my daughter with autism at her website

                    by coquiero on Wed May 08, 2013 at 08:43:40 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  Your entire comment is effectively (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            coquiero, TFinSF

            a word salad of incorrect assumptions and assertions about what I believe, how I engage politics, and sundry disjointed observations about the state of affairs in our political discourse.

            It merits no deeper consideration or thought, for much the same reasons as a two-year old's response to mommy telling him he can't have another cookie merits no deeper consideration or thought by the mother.

    •  Um. You think gun laws make violent crime go up? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      coquiero, rigcath
      How does trading one evil for another actually solve society's problems?
      I don't think it's a "trade".
      What solutions do you suggest will
      Generally, the solutions to all other problems seem really easy, because people don't oppose common sense solutions with the requirement that we solve something else first.

       Nobody says, "I don't want to increase mental health spending until we get gun violence under control", because there's no lobby organized to find hurdles to mental health spending.

      "We're now in one of those periods when the reality of intense pressure on the middle class diverges from long-held assumptions of how the American bargain should work" --James Fallows

      by Inland on Tue May 07, 2013 at 08:09:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I think humans have been taught to express (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        PavePusher

        their violent tendencies and restricting or banning things won't change that one bit.

        They'll find ways to continue to hurt, maim and kill...

        And you still didn't answer the question.  What solutions do you offer now that gun control has been taken off the table?

        -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

        by gerrilea on Tue May 07, 2013 at 01:17:51 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'd take the Australia experiment. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          coquiero

          I don't know what you mean by "expressing violence", but they seem to have fewer of the things I don't like, such as deaths.

          And you still didn't answer the question.  What solutions do you offer now that gun control has been taken off the table?
          Gun control hasn't been taken off the table.  That there are other means to address the same or different problems that gun control would address is irrelevant as far as I can tell, except for people who think they can make a rule whereby we have to go pound sand doing everything in the world before we can, say, limit magazine size.

          "We're now in one of those periods when the reality of intense pressure on the middle class diverges from long-held assumptions of how the American bargain should work" --James Fallows

          by Inland on Tue May 07, 2013 at 02:27:43 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Okay, show me where you got what you (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            PavePusher

            wanted?  There was a vote in the Senate and all the measures failed.

            Months of attacks and division and we're still no further ahead in dealing with the violence in our society, are we?

            From where I'm standing, yes, gun control is off the table until at least the next election, another year and a half...

            So, what do we do until that time?  Continue to allow 600,000 Americans to attempt suicide?  Continue to allow 133,000 Americans from dying from poverty?  

            Do we actually address gun violence in our inner cities brought about by the racist drug war? That's the majority of gun crimes in this nation and why aren't we talking about that now?

            Or are ALL those deaths an inconvenient truth you wish to ignore until you get your way?

            As for you not understanding "expressing violence",  children are taught that violence is an acceptable "solution", from cartoons to mega hit movies.  They/we are inundated with violence in the media, videos, games, etc.  We are conditioned into accepting violence as a "legitimate" solution.  See our unfunded resource wars we've been waging for the past 10 yrs.  If we don't get our way, we'll bomb the hell out of you!

            Why can't prisoners get the mental healthcare they need? Why can't any needy American? Oh, that's right, there's no money because we spent it on tax breaks for the wealthy, the ever expanding Military and Prison Industrial Complexes and the New American Police State.  We spent it on supporting the criminals on Wall Street and then we're told that we must gut Social Security too!

            Again, we have another year and a half to go, I'd like it to be productive.

            So if you aren't going to do anything else except wallow in your defeat, then you must really go pound sand!

            Thanks for playing.

            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

            by gerrilea on Tue May 07, 2013 at 02:53:05 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  This is standard NRA boilerplate: (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              coquiero
              As for you not understanding "expressing violence",  children are taught that violence is an acceptable "solution", from cartoons to mega hit movies.  They/we are inundated with violence in the media, videos, games, etc.
              ...And it's nonsense.
              •  Clearly you have nothing to add to this (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                PavePusher

                discussion because you'd be able to prove what I've presented is nonsense, you haven't.

                People are conditioned into accepting violence as a "legitimate" solution.  From men shooting children over loud music to maniacs gunning down unarmed men after following them for blocks.

                They use the same defense our government uses when it commits war crimes and intentionally undermines legitimate foreign nations..."self defense".

                That violence permeates everything in this nation.  Is it any wonder children kill their siblings while "pretending" they are Wrestle Mania actors?  To kids thinking it's funny to set puppies on fire to girls cooking kittens alive.

                That inundation of violence diminishes us all.  It dehumanizes us into the most vile acts.  And all you can come up with is "it's an NRA talking point"?

                Keep telling yourself that so that you can sleep well at night, I don't believe you.

                -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                by gerrilea on Tue May 07, 2013 at 04:35:08 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Hard to prove to the author (0+ / 0-)

                  of the nonsense that "what is presented" is nonsense.

                  You argue that violence permeates everything in this nation, then tell us that gun control is criminalizing us all.

                  Your ranting comments are the definition of nonsense.

                  You said yourself that there is no conversation here.  That's as much your fault as anyone else's.  

                  I blog about my daughter with autism at her website

                  by coquiero on Tue May 07, 2013 at 04:43:16 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  The nonesense is you continuing to believe (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    PavePusher

                    guns are the cause of the violence we have.

                    It's a symptom caused by years of republicanism.   And what I said was that criminalizing everything doesn't address the problem.  It becomes a problem unto itself with recidivism.  The dehumanization continues in prison creating an ever more violent society, a self-feeding cycle that perpetuates the Prison Industrial Complex.

                    This is the second time today you've failed at reading comprehension.  Is it a hobby of yours to create straw arguments and intentionally misrepresent what others say so that you can convince yourself of your moral superiority?

                    If so, it's not working.  Let's try to solve these problems together.  What do you suggest as a solution now that gun control is off the table?

                    Will you waste another six months feigning indignation and thrashing your teeth or will we try to work together to actually help each other again?

                    If this is nonsense, I'll end this conversation with you for good.  Please don't waste any more of my time if you aren't serious about addressing the things we can change, right now.

                    -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                    by gerrilea on Tue May 07, 2013 at 05:07:14 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Why would I want to solve problems together (0+ / 0-)

                      with someone who continually insults me?  My reading comprehension is well above average and I have never asserted my "moral superiority".

                      Are you delusional?  You are the angriest person I have ever met who advocates for non-violence and peaceful solutions.

                      All you have to do in order me to stop "wasting your time" is stop responding to me. Your need to have the final word makes this "conversation" possible.

                      I blog about my daughter with autism at her website

                      by coquiero on Tue May 07, 2013 at 05:13:27 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

            •  90 per cent didn't get what It wanted. This time. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              coquiero

              But nothing is off the table.  

              "We're now in one of those periods when the reality of intense pressure on the middle class diverges from long-held assumptions of how the American bargain should work" --James Fallows

              by Inland on Tue May 07, 2013 at 05:15:55 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  And while you continue to lick your wounds and (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                PavePusher

                attempt to form a coalition to defeat the republicans in the Senate and House, thousands more will continue to die.

                Why can't we at least attempt to push my suggestions???? Since gun control will not pass in this Congress. Or are we going to be forever divided while the status quo remains?

                Is it because you really don't want to help the 600,00+ Americans that attempt suicide and the 30,000+ that succeed?  Don't you want to help the 133,000 Americans that have died from poverty? Don't you want to end the unfunded resource wars? Make the 1% pay their fair share? End the racist drug war?  Rebuild our cities while creating living wage jobs for all?

                Is your position truly that empty? Either you get your precious gun control or you won't work towards Equity Under Law for all?

                Is that it?

                -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                by gerrilea on Tue May 07, 2013 at 05:53:41 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Quite a list you have there. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  coquiero

                  It's amazing how much good will and cooperation and effort you expect from the Republicans, not to mention from me, after approving of their disgusting performance in blocking the will of ninety percent of Americans.   NINETY PER CENT.

                  It's great, it really is, that you've delivered the challenge to change the entirety of society after you and yours blocked something as miniscule and as popular as expanded background checks.  You probably even think that you are pushing change, when in reality you're telling people that no matter what, a well funded group of ten percent can block anything.  

                  Here's what I'm taking from this: fuck giving up on the reasonable changes to background checks, magazine sizes and banning military weapons.  It's the percentage shot, and if it doesn't pass, every senator can eat campaign ads featuring their votes.

                  Oh....by the way....thanks for nothing.

                  "We're now in one of those periods when the reality of intense pressure on the middle class diverges from long-held assumptions of how the American bargain should work" --James Fallows

                  by Inland on Tue May 07, 2013 at 06:34:29 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  So, you're taking your toys and going home? (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    PavePusher

                    I could care less what the republicans want.  We need a leader to beat their asses into submission, use the full power the Office of the President can muster to get them back into their little boxes. One that will use the bully pulpit to put them in their places...sadly, I'm still waiting for that President.

                    And it's it odd that you now blame me for allowing the Supreme Court appointments that occurred under GW that lead to the Citizen's United Decision?  The one that allows our Corporate Overlords to buy our politicians lock, stock and barrel?

                    Isn't it odd that if we go back to the first AWB that actually got us handled our pink slips in the 90's the same republicans wouldn't have been able to "deregulate" media outlets that gave rise to the likes of Fox News and Rush?  And the Impeachment of a sitting president for getting a blow-job?  Or get the repeal of Glass-Steagall that lead to the biggest heist in human history and causing the collapse of the entire world's economy???

                    Your "precious" gun control has done more damage to this nation in 20 short years than all the guns ever have. Let's not forget the million plus dead Iraqi's and hundreds of thousands of dead Afghans!  

                    You see, my position hasn't changed one bit.  The only way your banning of "assault rifles" can be considered even remotely constitutional, as per Miller, would be to ban them for all Americans, including LEO, Military, etc.

                    That's not what was pushed.

                    UBC's and magazine restrictions will do nothing to lower gun violence.  Don't take my word for it...The NYS Sheriff's Association doesn't believe it either.  You see, my State did pass Gun Control:

                    http://www.nysheriffs.org/...

                    • Requirement of NICS checks for private sales (except between immediate family). We believe that this will ensure that responsible citizens will still be able to obtain legal firearms through private transactions, with the added assurance that private buyers are approved by the federal National Instant Criminal Background Check System. We remain concerned that this provision will be very difficult to enforce and will likely only affect law abiding citizens.

                    -cut-

                    •Assault weapon ban and definition of assault weapons. We believe that the new definition of assault weapons is too broad, and prevents the possession of many weapons that are legitimately used for hunting, target shooting and self defense. Classifying firearms as assault weapons because of one arbitrary feature effectively deprives people the right to possess firearms which have never before been designated as assault weapons. We are convinced that only law abiding gun owners will be affected by these new provisions, while criminals will still have and use whatever weapons they want.

                    -cut-

                    • Reduction of ammunition magazine capacity. The new law enacts reductions in the maximum capacity of gun magazines. We believe based on our years of law enforcement experience that this will not reduce gun violence. The new law will unfairly limit the ability of law‐abiding citizens to purchase firearms in New York. It bears repeating that it is our belief that the reduction of magazine capacity will not make New Yorkers or our communities safer.

                    Somehow I'm to blame, really? Even the professionals don't believe you.

                    So, you really don't want to progressively push this nation forward?  You have no legitimate solutions to help stop the violence we all must face?

                    I've been pushing for my suggestions for years, only to be laughed at, ridiculed and belittled. And here we are nothing still gets done.

                    Great game we go going, isn't it?

                    -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                    by gerrilea on Tue May 07, 2013 at 07:37:42 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  No, I'm taking the gun votes and jamming them (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      coquiero

                      right back up your barrel.   After declaring it all "off the table", I'm doing the exact opposite of quitting.  Thanks for your concern in my finding some other solution that you will allow me to look for as long as I give up on the gun thing.  See you in November 2014.

                      "We're now in one of those periods when the reality of intense pressure on the middle class diverges from long-held assumptions of how the American bargain should work" --James Fallows

                      by Inland on Wed May 08, 2013 at 07:41:43 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Really now, so it was never about saving the (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        PavePusher

                        children, was it?

                        -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                        by gerrilea on Wed May 08, 2013 at 08:00:28 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Of course it is. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          coquiero

                          Because we don't believe that you get to decide what actions we get to take for the children based on what you say is "off the table".  

                          Your attempt to say, "Not that, only this" fails because we care about children more than we care about you.

                          "We're now in one of those periods when the reality of intense pressure on the middle class diverges from long-held assumptions of how the American bargain should work" --James Fallows

                          by Inland on Wed May 08, 2013 at 08:08:00 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  If your position were true then why haven't (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            PavePusher

                            you done anything constructive towards those ends?

                            Your gun control attempts failed...so what's your next move?

                            Stomp your feet and whine until you get what you want?  IN the mean time, how many more people will die?

                            And BTW, until the next election, what chances are there for a gun control bill getting through this Congress?  My guess is slim to none...meaning it's off the table.

                            I like to deal in reality.  We still control two branches of this government. We could do other things until such time as you believe you'll get the votes for your "precious".

                            Why won't you even consider other options? Ones that we could actually accomplish? Are you afraid they'll actually work and you won't get the guns after all?

                            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                            by gerrilea on Wed May 08, 2013 at 08:26:07 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

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