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  •  H4 (14+ / 0-)

    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    Why should any solution also have to be responsible for non-gun violence, living wage jobs, etc? That's ridiculous. Should we never try to solve any problem unless the solution also includes a cure for cancer?

    ....no longer in SF.... -9.00, -7.38

    by TFinSF on Tue May 07, 2013 at 03:51:02 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  So, no adult conversation will be had here. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      FrankRose

      What's ridiculous is your bigotry.

      Clearly you have no desire to actually address the problems your "precious" gun control has brought us.

      http://www.dailykos.com/...

      -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

      by gerrilea on Tue May 07, 2013 at 05:45:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  And you... (5+ / 0-)

        have no desire to actually address the problems your "precious" guns have brought us.

        As you have demonstrated in comment after comment in diary after diary.

        Your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore. John Prine -8.00,-5.79

        by Miss Blue on Tue May 07, 2013 at 06:43:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Really "Miss Blue", had you actually read any (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          FrankRose

          of my diaries or comments, you'd know I've never owned a firearm AND I have presented my suggested solutions to the violence in this nation.

          You all don't want to make real honest policy decisions that will actually help all of us, I do.

          Therein lays the difference.  

          -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

          by gerrilea on Tue May 07, 2013 at 07:50:47 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Bigotry!? (4+ / 0-)

        Hello.  My name is Coquiero.  I am a gun bigot.

        Because I want everyone to go through a background check, and I want some regulations on certain types of guns and gun accessories that make it easy to kill a lot of people at once.  That's some dark oppression and hatred right there.

        I am also a Christian bigot, because I call people who actively campaign against LGBT issues bigots, so that makes me a bigot against their religion.

        I think you guys need to coin that phrase.  Forget about "gun grabbers", you should just call us "gun bigots"!  It's much more descriptive.  And shows how far off the beaten path you have gone.

        I blog about my daughter with autism at her website

        by coquiero on Tue May 07, 2013 at 07:24:06 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The sad thing is, (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          coquiero, rigcath

          they will compare the "bigotry" that gun owners suffer as being the same or similar to the bigotry LGBT folks suffer.  It's mystifying.

          "I don't want a unicorn. I want a fucking pegasus. And I want it to carry a flaming sword." -mahakali overdrive

          by Silvia Nightshade on Tue May 07, 2013 at 07:29:40 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  ??? Have you not been paying attention??? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Texas Lefty, FrankRose

            As a transgendered woman, I am part of that LGBT group.

            Which makes me just as qualified as anyone else to speak on these issues.

            The facts are that I do not agree with your "solutions" under our Constitutional Republic.

            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

            by gerrilea on Tue May 07, 2013 at 07:57:35 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You're allowed to disagree with me. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              coquiero

              My problem is saying gun owners are an oppressed minority just the same or close to the way LGBT folks are oppressed.  I just don't see how they are remotely similar.

              "I don't want a unicorn. I want a fucking pegasus. And I want it to carry a flaming sword." -mahakali overdrive

              by Silvia Nightshade on Wed May 08, 2013 at 06:30:57 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I'm not the one that made that comparison. (0+ / 0-)

                You and Coquiero did.

                A strawman to attack perhaps?

                -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                by gerrilea on Wed May 08, 2013 at 09:28:24 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Oh Jesus dude, (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  coquiero

                  I wasn't attacking anyone.  I was expressing my frustration with this particular argument that Coquiero brought up because I have seen it numerous times on DKos.  I can go dredge up links if you think I'm full of shit but I have a migraine and I'm not in the mood.

                  Just call me an asshole and HR me already if that will make you feel better, Christ.

                  "I don't want a unicorn. I want a fucking pegasus. And I want it to carry a flaming sword." -mahakali overdrive

                  by Silvia Nightshade on Wed May 08, 2013 at 09:57:10 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  There is no "beaten path" here. You lost round (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Texas Lefty, FrankRose

          one on the gun control issue.  Wasting months of bickering, arguing and attacking anyone who does not agree with your solution(s).  Where did it get us? Further divided and distrustful of one another while accomplishing NOTHING!

          As a transgendered woman, Conquiero, I believe that all religions should be banned or severely restricted.  But what stops my desires from becoming law?  The Constitution.  

          I've faced religions hatred and violence my entire life.  I've been assaulted, beaten, robbed and when I go to the police, what do they do? NOTHING!  "Well, if you didn't dress that way there wouldn't be a problem!"

          Your one-dimensional "solution" that denies those of us from legitimate discussion and participation in this process IS bigotry just like the religious zealots.  You are no better than they are.  It's the same hatred and the same emotional manipulation that denies our society the ability to progressively move forward.  

          My goal has always been Equity Under Law.  When you present a solution that includes "the restrictions" being made across the board for all Americans,  NO exceptions for LEO, the Military, the Secret Service, etc, then I'll listen.

          Up until that time you'll be wasting more lives by not actually addressing humanities violent nature as is revealed in our American Society today...  

          I am not safe from the Christian down the street whom thinks I should burn in hell.  I'm not safe from the institutionalized misogynistic policies of our created government.  

          Are any of us safe from the rape and pillaging of the Military Industrial Complex that sucks a trillion dollars a year from us all?  Are any of us safe from the School to Prison Pipeline that has become a self-feeding monster perpetuated by the Banksters that leads to a more violent culture and society?

          NOPE.  

          While it's great to hear that we may have common ground, it's you that has gone off the "beaten" path here, not me.  I've been paying attention and I don't get easily distracted by shinny objects.

          Guns didn't create these societal problems we face and "restricting" them won't fix them either.

          -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

          by gerrilea on Tue May 07, 2013 at 08:28:20 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  gerrilea (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            rigcath

            I am ridiculously sorry that you have faced hatred and violence.  I say that with nothing but sincerity.

            But when you say things like this:

            Your one-dimensional "solution" that denies those of us from legitimate discussion and participation in this process IS bigotry just like the religious zealots.  You are no better than they are.  It's the same hatred and the same emotional manipulation that denies our society the ability to progressively move forward.  
            let's just say it gets in the way of having any kind of conversation at all.  I am no better than religious zealots because I want people to be subjected to a background check and have limited magazine sizes?

            Listen to yourself.  When I say that you have veered off the beaten track, this is precisely what I am referring to.

            I blog about my daughter with autism at her website

            by coquiero on Tue May 07, 2013 at 08:42:59 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  There never was any conversation here. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              FrankRose

              Just a lot of emotionally manipulative arguments and ad homimens meant to shut anyone up that doesn't agree with your solutions.

              What part of Equity Under Law do you not understand?  

              Seriously.  

              How will your precious gun control be constitutionally cognizable with the Miller Decision?  If you don't make the ban or restrictions universal?  Meaning every American including LEO, military etc.

              You'll waste years of continuing the status quo and more people will die.  How's that a legitimate position again?

              We have all the tools we need right now.  EDUCATE our children with critical logical thinking skills.  Teach them peaceful resolution to conflicts.  Act peacefully as a society (ending the death penalty, ending the racist drug war) and as a nation (ending unfunded resource wars).

              Unless we address how we are manipulated into being a violent society, no one will be any safer.  

              Why won't you address these things?  Fear? Hatred? Have you no ability to think critically?  Why do you accept the media's "solution" of how and not why people are violent?  Laziness? What?

              The British have finally figured that out:


              http://www.dailymail.co.uk/...

                      The UK violent rate of 2034 per 100,000.
                      Australia 1677 per 100,00.
                      South Africa 1,609 per 100,000
                      Canada 935 per 100,000

                      The U.S. has a violence rate of 466 crimes per 100,000 residents.

                  -cut-

                      Shadow Home Secretary Chris Grayling said: 'This is a damning indictment of this government's comprehensive failure over more than a decade to tackle the deep rooted social problems in our society, and the knock on effect on crime and anti-social behaviour.

              Why can't we learn from their mistakes?  Why are we being misdirected and divided????

              I tried to point this problem out in this diary and was lambasted for it.

              You see, my position has never changed here.  I want to wake up in a nation where my fellow Americans don't feel the need to own a firearm or will use violence as their first and only solution to their problems.

              We need to stop criminalizing people.  JUST STOP IT!  The vicious cycle will never end and will never be corrected until we do.  Banning assault weapons, magazine sizes and UBC will give the Prison Industrial Complex a new clientele base for generations.  Is that what you want????  More generations of Americans economically, socially and politically oppressed by our Corporate Overlords????

              I don't.

              Have a great day, this is the end of my rant, for now.

              -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

              by gerrilea on Tue May 07, 2013 at 09:52:29 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I don't think you're defending what you think you (0+ / 0-)

                are.

                You are aligning yourself with a group of people who do not have the same end goal in mind as you do.

                I read what your wrote, tried to push aside the attacks on my moral character, and I can see what your point is, but I'm telling you that you are arguing for the same thing as the RBKAers but for entirely different reasons.

                Doing away with gun regulations isn't going to stop criminalizing people.  

                I must say that I have never before seen the argument that we need to do away with gun regulations to attain a peaceful society.  That's  a new one.

                Also, I agree that universal background check should mean just that.

                I blog about my daughter with autism at her website

                by coquiero on Tue May 07, 2013 at 10:16:29 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  "I must say that I have never before seen the" (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  PavePusher

                  argument..."

                  The reason why you never saw it before is because I didn't say that, a strawman.

                  Your moral character was brought when up said you were a "gun bigot".  You tried to defend your "morality" and I didn't fall for it.  The emotions, the hatred and authoritarian mentality are no different than any other bigot.  I see it for what it is, nothing more or less.  

                  As for "aligning myself" with others.  The one thing we have in common is the Constitution and how we perceive it as the rules our government must follow.  It limits our government's actions, not ours.

                  As I mentioned above, I detest all religions and believe they should be banned.  I won't get what I want even if I attempted an Article V solution, it won't happen.  Does this mean that I should degrade and attempt to deny those from exercising that right? Nope.  I'm a spiritual person that was once like them, I'm a recovering Catholic, so I can empathize with their beliefs.  They have every right to believe whatever the wish, even if it means my death, sadly.

                  But I can educate my fellow Americans into seeing me as their equal.  I can show them through a lifetime of exposure that "Hey, she's just like me!"  I can show them that their beliefs intentionally spread fear and hatred and hurt me far worse than if they put a bullet in my head.  I can try to change the world, one person at a time. There are many that cannot see past their own bigotry to even allow me a moment to exist, that's what I detest the most.

                  A closed mind.

                  Same goes with the 2nd Amendment.  I believe we all have that individual right.  I know, for me, a firearm is meant for one thing, killing and I would pull the trigger if it came down to my life or yours.  I chose not to be a killer. That's my choice to make, not yours.  I've learned through the years that violence is easy and the escalation of violence even easier.  It's as easy as pulling the trigger, but that trigger doesn't pull itself.

                  My fellow RKBA members have proven that they know and understand that reality better than anyone else here.  They actually understand that the violence comes from the person not the object they wield.

                  And in that vain, I wholeheartedly agree.  If we are to progressively evolve as a society, and as a species, we must change ourselves.  

                  I cannot stop people from believing what they do.  

                  I cannot stop someone from pulling the trigger.

                  But WE can teach them, together.

                  We can give every American the tools they need to be successful Adults and then treat them that way.

                  We, as a nation, must demand that our government follow the rules we gave it.  The expansion and protection of rights to all people, not their abrogation.

                  In short, we must demand Equity Under Law if we are to move beyond the status quo. We must teach it and live it.

                  You know what then? I won't care if my fellow Americans have the capacity to kill hundreds in seconds, why? Because I know they won't hurt me intentionally.

                  I know that they will value my life as much as they value their own because I am their equal.

                  -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                  by gerrilea on Tue May 07, 2013 at 11:35:31 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Well, all I can say is what my mother used to (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    TFinSF

                    tell me,  "People know you by the company you keep."

                    As for "aligning myself" with others.  The one thing we have in common is the Constitution and how we perceive it as the rules our government must follow.
                    That's just pure bullshit.  That somehow the constitution belongs to you and the RKBAers and the rightwing goofballs wearing bad hats with teabags taped to them.

                    I believe in the constitution.  It's mine as much as yours.

                    I blog about my daughter with autism at her website

                    by coquiero on Tue May 07, 2013 at 11:44:02 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  ROFL, so now you say I'm guilty because of (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      PavePusher

                      the company I keep?

                      Do you not understand that your false logic has no bearing on me?

                      Hon, where did I say that the constitution was mine????  You failed at reading comprehension.  I said we shared how we view the Constitution, get it???

                      Where did I say I was a teabagger?

                      Where did I say I was a rightwing goofball?

                      Prima Facia evidence that your bigotry is no different than the religious zealots amongst us.

                      So much for your "moral superiority", when confronted with legitimate conversation, you belittle and attack to hide your failure to address the subject.

                      LMFAO.

                      Have a good day.

                      -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                      by gerrilea on Tue May 07, 2013 at 11:52:58 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  You just created another Strawman... (0+ / 0-)

                      but this one is quite... flaccid.

                      What you said:

                      That somehow the constitution belongs to you and the RKBAers and the rightwing goofballs wearing bad hats with teabags taped to them.

                      What she said (and you even quoted it...):

                      The one thing we have in common is the Constitution and how we perceive it as the rules our government must follow.
                      Your "translation" fails badly.

                      Your hate-mail will be graded.

                      by PavePusher on Wed May 08, 2013 at 11:43:09 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Not even close (0+ / 0-)

                        Jesus, read your own comment.

                        If you and your ilk have in common "the Constitution and how we perceive it as the rules our government must follow", then logically she is claiming that I DON'T have that in common with you.

                        Hence my claim that you and she seem to think that your belief in the Constitution is somehow purer than mine.

                        That's total bullshit.

                        So my comment was totally appropriate and right on the money.

                        I blog about my daughter with autism at her website

                        by coquiero on Wed May 08, 2013 at 11:59:21 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

    •  The logic is ridiculous. They'd have us do nothing (7+ / 0-)

      about anything unless it solved everything. It's like some demented, passive aggressive nihilism.

      •  You lost the first round, now what do you suggest? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        PavePusher

        Continuing your temper tantrum of ad hominem's will not solve the problems.

        Maybe we should start from the beginning and define the problem.  I view our problem(s) as one created by the policies coming out of DC that have oppressed millions forcing us all into abject poverty creating the conditions for violence.  Policies that were codified when we lost control of the House in the 90's due to the first AWB.

        You'd have the argument be only about "gun violence"...a canard because it's actually gone down in the last 40 yrs.

        You've been distracted by the shinning objects and fail to admit that we destroyed ourselves by allowing the republicans to take control of our government.

        They stripped social programs and started unfunded resource wars, shipped our living wage jobs to slave-labored nations, increased the racist war on drugs and the accompanying social destruction it brought and then you blame it all on the gun?

        Who you kidding?

        Now you try to label me to avoid responsibility.  What's it gotten you?

        NOTHING.

        I expected rational minds to accept defeat and move onto things that will actually help all of us.  Say like ending NAFTA, GATT and our participation in the WTO, creating living wage jobs and funding social programs that will allow us to remain in power WHILE doing the right thing.

        What a novel idea, Democrats actually doing the right thing for a change.

        You just want the easy answer.  What would happen if you got every firearm in America removed?  Well, sure there wouldn't be any gun deaths, but would that stop people from killing each other by other means?  Would it stop the 600,000+ attempted suicides each year?  Would it address the despair and poverty that kill 133,000 American each and every year?

        NOPE.

        Get back to me when you wake up and want to discuss these things honestly.

        So much for that "passive aggressive" bullshit, I was being polite.

        Now you can either shit or get off the pot.  And stay out of the way from those of us that will demand the right things be done.  Those of us that will get more AND better Democrats elected, not the corporate lapdogs that pretend at "caring", just enough to the next election.

        -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

        by gerrilea on Tue May 07, 2013 at 01:13:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  "Accept defeat?" (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TFinSF

          Because a bill failed to pass the house?  We should--what--all go crawl up under a rock whimpering and moaning?

          What political process are you part of?  That's not the one I'm part of.

          You really amp up the hyperbole when people don't agree with you, don't you?

          You seem deeply concerned about poverty and mental health issues.  I agree with you.  Let's continue to work on those.

          One is not exclusive of the other.  That's all several commenters, including myself, are trying to say here.

          And please, dial back the righteous indignation.

          I blog about my daughter with autism at her website

          by coquiero on Tue May 07, 2013 at 03:48:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Just saw this posting, what you perceive I'm (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            PavePusher

            saying and what I've said are not the same things.

            The bills failed the Senate, not the House.  You are whimpering and moaning and still playing your Bingo Game because you will not address these issues maturely.  Playing games isn't productive or mature.

            And you all still ignore the fact that we can accomplish the same things without gun control but for whatever reasons REFUSE TO.

            Then you tell me to dial back the indignation I feel at your folly?  PEOPLE are still dying.  WASN'T the argument about "saving the children"???

            Clearly when it comes down to it, it wasn't about saving anyone and I can only conclude you only want the guns and all that moral righteousness of stopping "gun violence" was a red herring.

            WE can still do things that will save lives and all you can do is attack me personally, even after you lost the vote on gun control?

            I don't believe any of you any longer.  I will be printing these replies out and saving them as a reference point for any future "discussions"...  After the next mass shootings or needless and preventable deaths...

            You were given the opportunity to make a difference and chose not to.

            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

            by gerrilea on Wed May 08, 2013 at 05:39:26 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I can't take you seriously (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              TFinSF

              Your comments are silly and meaningless.  I don't say this to attack you, I'm just saying that your comments are so over the top and out of order as to be comical.

              You seem to conflate every commenter who would like any measure of gun control into one person.  Until you get a more nuanced way of relating here, I'm afraid it's hopeless.

              I blog about my daughter with autism at her website

              by coquiero on Wed May 08, 2013 at 07:50:02 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Do you mean I must use your techniques of (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                PavePusher, wishbone

                false logic including poisoning the well, ad homimens, innuendo and sly insults? Is that the "nuanced way of relating" you want?

                Didn't you conflate my position as being like a rightwing goofball?

                Oh, that's right, you did.

                Didn't you then accuse me of "hanging with the wrong crowd" and quote your dear Mother?

                Oh, that's right, you did.

                Now you say trying to save lives by other means than your "precious" gun control is "silly and meaningless".

                If that don't take the cake here.  

                I took the time to explain my position in detail and you this is your answer.

                I guess all you really wanted was the guns after all.

                Have a great day.

                -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                by gerrilea on Wed May 08, 2013 at 08:10:02 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  As my kids say (0+ / 0-)

                  whatev's.

                  You haven't explained anything!  All you've done is yell at me and tell me what I think.  Incorrectly, of course.

                  But you are convinced that you are righteous and I am a gun grabber, so that's fine.

                  The fact is your opinion of me has no bearing on anything, so as I said, whatev's.

                  I blog about my daughter with autism at her website

                  by coquiero on Wed May 08, 2013 at 08:43:40 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Your entire comment is effectively (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          coquiero, TFinSF

          a word salad of incorrect assumptions and assertions about what I believe, how I engage politics, and sundry disjointed observations about the state of affairs in our political discourse.

          It merits no deeper consideration or thought, for much the same reasons as a two-year old's response to mommy telling him he can't have another cookie merits no deeper consideration or thought by the mother.

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