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  •  Um. You think gun laws make violent crime go up? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    coquiero, rigcath
    How does trading one evil for another actually solve society's problems?
    I don't think it's a "trade".
    What solutions do you suggest will
    Generally, the solutions to all other problems seem really easy, because people don't oppose common sense solutions with the requirement that we solve something else first.

     Nobody says, "I don't want to increase mental health spending until we get gun violence under control", because there's no lobby organized to find hurdles to mental health spending.

    "We're now in one of those periods when the reality of intense pressure on the middle class diverges from long-held assumptions of how the American bargain should work" --James Fallows

    by Inland on Tue May 07, 2013 at 08:09:14 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  I think humans have been taught to express (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PavePusher

      their violent tendencies and restricting or banning things won't change that one bit.

      They'll find ways to continue to hurt, maim and kill...

      And you still didn't answer the question.  What solutions do you offer now that gun control has been taken off the table?

      -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

      by gerrilea on Tue May 07, 2013 at 01:17:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'd take the Australia experiment. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        coquiero

        I don't know what you mean by "expressing violence", but they seem to have fewer of the things I don't like, such as deaths.

        And you still didn't answer the question.  What solutions do you offer now that gun control has been taken off the table?
        Gun control hasn't been taken off the table.  That there are other means to address the same or different problems that gun control would address is irrelevant as far as I can tell, except for people who think they can make a rule whereby we have to go pound sand doing everything in the world before we can, say, limit magazine size.

        "We're now in one of those periods when the reality of intense pressure on the middle class diverges from long-held assumptions of how the American bargain should work" --James Fallows

        by Inland on Tue May 07, 2013 at 02:27:43 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Okay, show me where you got what you (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          PavePusher

          wanted?  There was a vote in the Senate and all the measures failed.

          Months of attacks and division and we're still no further ahead in dealing with the violence in our society, are we?

          From where I'm standing, yes, gun control is off the table until at least the next election, another year and a half...

          So, what do we do until that time?  Continue to allow 600,000 Americans to attempt suicide?  Continue to allow 133,000 Americans from dying from poverty?  

          Do we actually address gun violence in our inner cities brought about by the racist drug war? That's the majority of gun crimes in this nation and why aren't we talking about that now?

          Or are ALL those deaths an inconvenient truth you wish to ignore until you get your way?

          As for you not understanding "expressing violence",  children are taught that violence is an acceptable "solution", from cartoons to mega hit movies.  They/we are inundated with violence in the media, videos, games, etc.  We are conditioned into accepting violence as a "legitimate" solution.  See our unfunded resource wars we've been waging for the past 10 yrs.  If we don't get our way, we'll bomb the hell out of you!

          Why can't prisoners get the mental healthcare they need? Why can't any needy American? Oh, that's right, there's no money because we spent it on tax breaks for the wealthy, the ever expanding Military and Prison Industrial Complexes and the New American Police State.  We spent it on supporting the criminals on Wall Street and then we're told that we must gut Social Security too!

          Again, we have another year and a half to go, I'd like it to be productive.

          So if you aren't going to do anything else except wallow in your defeat, then you must really go pound sand!

          Thanks for playing.

          -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

          by gerrilea on Tue May 07, 2013 at 02:53:05 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  This is standard NRA boilerplate: (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            coquiero
            As for you not understanding "expressing violence",  children are taught that violence is an acceptable "solution", from cartoons to mega hit movies.  They/we are inundated with violence in the media, videos, games, etc.
            ...And it's nonsense.
            •  Clearly you have nothing to add to this (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              PavePusher

              discussion because you'd be able to prove what I've presented is nonsense, you haven't.

              People are conditioned into accepting violence as a "legitimate" solution.  From men shooting children over loud music to maniacs gunning down unarmed men after following them for blocks.

              They use the same defense our government uses when it commits war crimes and intentionally undermines legitimate foreign nations..."self defense".

              That violence permeates everything in this nation.  Is it any wonder children kill their siblings while "pretending" they are Wrestle Mania actors?  To kids thinking it's funny to set puppies on fire to girls cooking kittens alive.

              That inundation of violence diminishes us all.  It dehumanizes us into the most vile acts.  And all you can come up with is "it's an NRA talking point"?

              Keep telling yourself that so that you can sleep well at night, I don't believe you.

              -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

              by gerrilea on Tue May 07, 2013 at 04:35:08 PM PDT

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              •  Hard to prove to the author (0+ / 0-)

                of the nonsense that "what is presented" is nonsense.

                You argue that violence permeates everything in this nation, then tell us that gun control is criminalizing us all.

                Your ranting comments are the definition of nonsense.

                You said yourself that there is no conversation here.  That's as much your fault as anyone else's.  

                I blog about my daughter with autism at her website

                by coquiero on Tue May 07, 2013 at 04:43:16 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  The nonesense is you continuing to believe (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  PavePusher

                  guns are the cause of the violence we have.

                  It's a symptom caused by years of republicanism.   And what I said was that criminalizing everything doesn't address the problem.  It becomes a problem unto itself with recidivism.  The dehumanization continues in prison creating an ever more violent society, a self-feeding cycle that perpetuates the Prison Industrial Complex.

                  This is the second time today you've failed at reading comprehension.  Is it a hobby of yours to create straw arguments and intentionally misrepresent what others say so that you can convince yourself of your moral superiority?

                  If so, it's not working.  Let's try to solve these problems together.  What do you suggest as a solution now that gun control is off the table?

                  Will you waste another six months feigning indignation and thrashing your teeth or will we try to work together to actually help each other again?

                  If this is nonsense, I'll end this conversation with you for good.  Please don't waste any more of my time if you aren't serious about addressing the things we can change, right now.

                  -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                  by gerrilea on Tue May 07, 2013 at 05:07:14 PM PDT

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                  •  Why would I want to solve problems together (0+ / 0-)

                    with someone who continually insults me?  My reading comprehension is well above average and I have never asserted my "moral superiority".

                    Are you delusional?  You are the angriest person I have ever met who advocates for non-violence and peaceful solutions.

                    All you have to do in order me to stop "wasting your time" is stop responding to me. Your need to have the final word makes this "conversation" possible.

                    I blog about my daughter with autism at her website

                    by coquiero on Tue May 07, 2013 at 05:13:27 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  90 per cent didn't get what It wanted. This time. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            coquiero

            But nothing is off the table.  

            "We're now in one of those periods when the reality of intense pressure on the middle class diverges from long-held assumptions of how the American bargain should work" --James Fallows

            by Inland on Tue May 07, 2013 at 05:15:55 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  And while you continue to lick your wounds and (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              PavePusher

              attempt to form a coalition to defeat the republicans in the Senate and House, thousands more will continue to die.

              Why can't we at least attempt to push my suggestions???? Since gun control will not pass in this Congress. Or are we going to be forever divided while the status quo remains?

              Is it because you really don't want to help the 600,00+ Americans that attempt suicide and the 30,000+ that succeed?  Don't you want to help the 133,000 Americans that have died from poverty? Don't you want to end the unfunded resource wars? Make the 1% pay their fair share? End the racist drug war?  Rebuild our cities while creating living wage jobs for all?

              Is your position truly that empty? Either you get your precious gun control or you won't work towards Equity Under Law for all?

              Is that it?

              -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

              by gerrilea on Tue May 07, 2013 at 05:53:41 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Quite a list you have there. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                coquiero

                It's amazing how much good will and cooperation and effort you expect from the Republicans, not to mention from me, after approving of their disgusting performance in blocking the will of ninety percent of Americans.   NINETY PER CENT.

                It's great, it really is, that you've delivered the challenge to change the entirety of society after you and yours blocked something as miniscule and as popular as expanded background checks.  You probably even think that you are pushing change, when in reality you're telling people that no matter what, a well funded group of ten percent can block anything.  

                Here's what I'm taking from this: fuck giving up on the reasonable changes to background checks, magazine sizes and banning military weapons.  It's the percentage shot, and if it doesn't pass, every senator can eat campaign ads featuring their votes.

                Oh....by the way....thanks for nothing.

                "We're now in one of those periods when the reality of intense pressure on the middle class diverges from long-held assumptions of how the American bargain should work" --James Fallows

                by Inland on Tue May 07, 2013 at 06:34:29 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  So, you're taking your toys and going home? (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  PavePusher

                  I could care less what the republicans want.  We need a leader to beat their asses into submission, use the full power the Office of the President can muster to get them back into their little boxes. One that will use the bully pulpit to put them in their places...sadly, I'm still waiting for that President.

                  And it's it odd that you now blame me for allowing the Supreme Court appointments that occurred under GW that lead to the Citizen's United Decision?  The one that allows our Corporate Overlords to buy our politicians lock, stock and barrel?

                  Isn't it odd that if we go back to the first AWB that actually got us handled our pink slips in the 90's the same republicans wouldn't have been able to "deregulate" media outlets that gave rise to the likes of Fox News and Rush?  And the Impeachment of a sitting president for getting a blow-job?  Or get the repeal of Glass-Steagall that lead to the biggest heist in human history and causing the collapse of the entire world's economy???

                  Your "precious" gun control has done more damage to this nation in 20 short years than all the guns ever have. Let's not forget the million plus dead Iraqi's and hundreds of thousands of dead Afghans!  

                  You see, my position hasn't changed one bit.  The only way your banning of "assault rifles" can be considered even remotely constitutional, as per Miller, would be to ban them for all Americans, including LEO, Military, etc.

                  That's not what was pushed.

                  UBC's and magazine restrictions will do nothing to lower gun violence.  Don't take my word for it...The NYS Sheriff's Association doesn't believe it either.  You see, my State did pass Gun Control:

                  http://www.nysheriffs.org/...

                  • Requirement of NICS checks for private sales (except between immediate family). We believe that this will ensure that responsible citizens will still be able to obtain legal firearms through private transactions, with the added assurance that private buyers are approved by the federal National Instant Criminal Background Check System. We remain concerned that this provision will be very difficult to enforce and will likely only affect law abiding citizens.

                  -cut-

                  •Assault weapon ban and definition of assault weapons. We believe that the new definition of assault weapons is too broad, and prevents the possession of many weapons that are legitimately used for hunting, target shooting and self defense. Classifying firearms as assault weapons because of one arbitrary feature effectively deprives people the right to possess firearms which have never before been designated as assault weapons. We are convinced that only law abiding gun owners will be affected by these new provisions, while criminals will still have and use whatever weapons they want.

                  -cut-

                  • Reduction of ammunition magazine capacity. The new law enacts reductions in the maximum capacity of gun magazines. We believe based on our years of law enforcement experience that this will not reduce gun violence. The new law will unfairly limit the ability of law‐abiding citizens to purchase firearms in New York. It bears repeating that it is our belief that the reduction of magazine capacity will not make New Yorkers or our communities safer.

                  Somehow I'm to blame, really? Even the professionals don't believe you.

                  So, you really don't want to progressively push this nation forward?  You have no legitimate solutions to help stop the violence we all must face?

                  I've been pushing for my suggestions for years, only to be laughed at, ridiculed and belittled. And here we are nothing still gets done.

                  Great game we go going, isn't it?

                  -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                  by gerrilea on Tue May 07, 2013 at 07:37:42 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  No, I'm taking the gun votes and jamming them (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    coquiero

                    right back up your barrel.   After declaring it all "off the table", I'm doing the exact opposite of quitting.  Thanks for your concern in my finding some other solution that you will allow me to look for as long as I give up on the gun thing.  See you in November 2014.

                    "We're now in one of those periods when the reality of intense pressure on the middle class diverges from long-held assumptions of how the American bargain should work" --James Fallows

                    by Inland on Wed May 08, 2013 at 07:41:43 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Really now, so it was never about saving the (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      PavePusher

                      children, was it?

                      -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                      by gerrilea on Wed May 08, 2013 at 08:00:28 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Of course it is. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        coquiero

                        Because we don't believe that you get to decide what actions we get to take for the children based on what you say is "off the table".  

                        Your attempt to say, "Not that, only this" fails because we care about children more than we care about you.

                        "We're now in one of those periods when the reality of intense pressure on the middle class diverges from long-held assumptions of how the American bargain should work" --James Fallows

                        by Inland on Wed May 08, 2013 at 08:08:00 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  If your position were true then why haven't (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          PavePusher

                          you done anything constructive towards those ends?

                          Your gun control attempts failed...so what's your next move?

                          Stomp your feet and whine until you get what you want?  IN the mean time, how many more people will die?

                          And BTW, until the next election, what chances are there for a gun control bill getting through this Congress?  My guess is slim to none...meaning it's off the table.

                          I like to deal in reality.  We still control two branches of this government. We could do other things until such time as you believe you'll get the votes for your "precious".

                          Why won't you even consider other options? Ones that we could actually accomplish? Are you afraid they'll actually work and you won't get the guns after all?

                          -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                          by gerrilea on Wed May 08, 2013 at 08:26:07 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

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