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View Diary: Syria - For Republicans There is No Downside -or- How Democrats Can Really Be Hurt (86 comments)

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  •  You think Israel wants regime change and (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    InAntalya, Kane in CA, PrahaPartizan

    destabilization in Syria?  They've had detante for how many years now, and even times during the 90s when there were real moves towards peace, in the time of Papa Assad.  The Syrian news at times softened so much towards Israel that I had a taxi driver in Aleppo ask me once out of the blue if I thought there would be peace between Syria and Israel and when I gave a (very) startled, non-committal reply, added that he thought it would be good for the economy.  My take from reading the news is that Israel is very much alarmed at what's going on in Syria right now.

    If Obama wants regime change in Syria, I can't blame him.  I think the poor Syrian people deserve a lot better than they've had, although I am concerned about the Kurds and the Christians and the Yezidis and even the Alawites.

    “If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.” - state motto of Fitzwalkerstan

    by non acquiescer on Tue May 07, 2013 at 02:58:51 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Depends on what news you read. (4+ / 0-)

      What Israel wants, the neocons want.  The neocons have long wanted regime change and balkanization, from PNAC to their successors orgs like AEI, WINEP, and FPI.  

      "I'm an antiwar propagandist as accused by democrats. Not even republicans have called me that."

      by BigAlinWashSt on Tue May 07, 2013 at 03:05:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Israel knows that at some point (6+ / 0-)

      in time it would have to make peace with a stable Syria and give back the Golan. It nearly happened in 2000 before Hafez al-Assad died and Israel would like to avoid that. Far better for Israel to have a fractured Syria which cannot in any realistic sense ask for a return of the Golan as part of its state.

    •  In the mid-90's a group of neocons (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BigAlinWashSt, corvo, JesseCW

      proposed doing away with "detente" and in it's place using what ever means necessary including military action to remove Saddam from power and to "roll back" Syria.

      Our policies have evolved from that to where we are now, already having disposed of Saddam.

      Here's a link from democratic underground with a link there to the actual document from 1996.

      Plans for regime change in Syria have been in the making for a long time.

      Orwell - "Political language ... is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable"

      by truong son traveler on Tue May 07, 2013 at 10:45:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Because someone wrote it (0+ / 0-)

        over a decade ago, does that make it US policy? Clearly that group had political influence during the Bush administration. Do you have evidence any of those policies were ever put in place with regards to Syria, and if they were, continued during the Obama administration?

        •  US policy is determined by US actions, (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JesseCW, truong son traveler

          not by signing on (or refusing to sign on) to statements.

          Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

          by corvo on Wed May 08, 2013 at 06:13:35 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Indeed (0+ / 0-)

            And the evidence is pretty slim that US actions over the last 10 years have been consistent with the plan outlined in that statement. I'm not claiming it hasn't happened, only that when the strongest evidence is a more than 15 year old document that few, if any, in the current administration have publicly adopted, it doesn't lend much strength to the argument.

            •  And yet we're following the plans (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              truong son traveler

              more or less to the letter, if more slowly than their authors may have wished.

              Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

              by corvo on Wed May 08, 2013 at 08:43:09 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Not really (0+ / 0-)

                The "plan" for Syria was rather vague. Much of it was based on external conditions which no longer exist. Trying to squeeze anything from that document into what's actually happened over the last 2 years is a stretch.

                •  The "external conditions" were an excuse. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  truong son traveler

                  Or an alibi, if you prefer more polite language.

                  Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                  by corvo on Wed May 08, 2013 at 09:07:44 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Except (0+ / 0-)

                    they were part and parcel to that clean break plan. Throw them out and there is no plan. So what we have today in Syria has almost no similarities with that 17 year old document.

                    •  The plan (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      truong son traveler

                      is regional domination and control of resources by the right people.

                      That's it.  Everything else is for the gullible or self-deluded, including all of that pious (if not mendacious) nonsense about democracy.

                      Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                      by corvo on Wed May 08, 2013 at 09:22:01 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  "rolling back" is somewhat vague (0+ / 0-)

                  intentionally so no doubt. The paper also said it should be done using proxy forces. That is exactly what is happening.

                  Orwell - "Political language ... is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable"

                  by truong son traveler on Thu May 09, 2013 at 03:08:24 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

    •  What Israel wants is a government in Syria (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      corvo

      that will sign away the Golan.

      If that's a Western educated, oriented, and appointed "Interim Government", that's just fine by them.

      Wash. Judge Tells Cops To Return Man’s Marijuana Or Be Found In Contempt

      by JesseCW on Wed May 08, 2013 at 06:22:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Israel has had that (0+ / 0-)

        in Assad. The Golan has been been under Israeli control for more than 40 years. Neither side has shown much interest in talking about it since then.

        •  I think that Syria and Israel were close to (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          corvo, JesseCW

          some sort of agreement in 2008.

          Lamb chop, we can quibble what to call it, but I think we can both agree it's creepy.

          by InAntalya on Wed May 08, 2013 at 08:22:42 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Right (0+ / 0-)

            I don't recall anything specifically in 2008, but for the most part what has happened since the early 90's is that the two parties make an agreement to have discussions. Sometimes they talked, sometimes they didn't, but if there were any formal offers from either side, they didn't get very far. Talks would break up and both sides went home. Syria still has a claim and Israel still has the land acquired subsequent to multiple hostile actions on the part of Syria. Bottom line is that nothing substantive has happened in almost 46 years.

            •  Israel is still occupying the land and refusing (0+ / 0-)

              peace treaties offered with very reasonable terms, and is still illegally settling the occupied land while illegally pressuring the local inhabitants to vacate.

              Not even the US under Bush disagreed with the UN's condemnation of the Israeli mistreatment of the Syrians living in the Golan Heights.  A resolutions demanding the end of the abuses passed 161-1.  Only Israel voted against.

              It was very widely reported that Barak's cowardice was the only barrier in 2000, when the Clinton team laid the blame squarely at his feet.  Israel simply refused, with no sound basis, to agree to return the Syrian land in a 100 meter strip on the north shore of the Sea of Galilee.

              In 2007, Olmert reached an agreement for returning all of the Golan Heights only to have it quashed by Bibi, who publicly insisted that Mount Hermon must remain in Israeli hands.

              "Syria has a claim" accepted by the entire planet except Israel.  No other nation, including even nations like the US which are consumed with obscene racist bigotry against Arabs, questions that claim.

              Wash. Judge Tells Cops To Return Man’s Marijuana Or Be Found In Contempt

              by JesseCW on Wed May 08, 2013 at 02:30:56 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Right. Assad signed away the Golan. (0+ / 0-)

          Oh, and the decade of negotiations that led to quite a reasonable agreement, that would have likely gone through had Israel not veered insanely far right?

          Never happened.

          Wash. Judge Tells Cops To Return Man’s Marijuana Or Be Found In Contempt

          by JesseCW on Wed May 08, 2013 at 02:19:08 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  (*dingdingdingdingdingding*) (0+ / 0-)

        WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!

        Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

        by corvo on Wed May 08, 2013 at 08:46:06 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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