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  •  Um, you might want to check your facts. (0+ / 1-)
    Recommended by:
    Hidden by:
    Tom Seaview

    There are a number of members of the DK RKBA group who admit they do not vote Democratic.  This includes the founder and administrator of the group.

    "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

    by FogCityJohn on Fri May 10, 2013 at 10:31:16 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  You should check yours. (7+ / 0-)

      But why argue?
      Link.

      Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

      by FrankRose on Fri May 10, 2013 at 01:47:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No need to argue. (0+ / 1-)
        Recommended by:
        Hidden by:
        Tom Seaview

        Just check this thread out:

        http://www.dailykos.com/...

        Or you might want to peruse this diary and its comments section:

        http://www.dailykos.com/...

        In it, you will find gems such as this comment:

        In response to "Are you going to vote R if" (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:43north

        a renewed AWB is passed?

        I will answer this the same way that I answer these types of questions in gun forums, which are largely conservative.  My allegiance is not to a political party.  My willingness to vote for a party is limited to the extent that the party platform agrees with my ideals.  Generally speaking, I don't like being a single issue voter, but an AWB would be an affront and impact me personally.  Consequently, if my representative, regardless of party affiliation voted for an AWB I would actively vote and campaign against that candidate, even if it means voting for and supporting an R candidate.

        by noway2 on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 12:53:40 PM PST

        "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

        by FogCityJohn on Fri May 10, 2013 at 05:49:43 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not KV. "The founder & administrator [of RKBA]" (5+ / 0-)

          From your link "Of course I think that Republicans are a bad thing. That's why I'd never vote for them."

          You are either incorrect or lying.
          A retraction or the lack thereof will establish which.

          Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

          by FrankRose on Fri May 10, 2013 at 06:02:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm not surprised by your HR. (0+ / 0-)

            After all, you folks HR pretty much everything you don't agree with.  But I am rather mystified as to its basis.  Do you think that KV isn't the administrator of RKBA?  Because this is copied from his profile:

            Founding member (and organizer) of the RKBA DKos group.
            And if you look at the following page, you'll see he's listed as a "Blog Admin."

             http://www.dailykos.com/...

            And if you had bothered to read the thread, you'd see that KV quite openly admitted that he can't support the Democratic Party because of its position on guns.  Perhaps you're simply confused.  My original comment doesn't say KV was supporting the Republican Party.  It said only -- and entirely accurately -- that he wasn't supporting the Democratic Party, a fact to which he himself has admitted.

            So what, exactly, do you find inaccurate?  

            "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

            by FogCityJohn on Fri May 10, 2013 at 06:28:48 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I didn't HR you. So it must be a suprise. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              PavePusher, Otteray Scribe, 43north

              And I did read the thread. Hence, my quote of KV from your link.

              You are wrong.

              Retracting & admitting a mistake is really not that bad. Unlike some, I won't hold it against you (honestly).
              You do not have a reputation of perfection to uphold.
              Do yourself a favor & simply retract it.....or just be a liar.
              All the same to me.

              Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

              by FrankRose on Fri May 10, 2013 at 06:57:40 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Sorry Frank. (0+ / 1-)
                Recommended by:
                Hidden by:
                Tom Seaview

                I do owe you an apology.  I confused the HR on this comment with one of your other HRs.  

                Even though I know you know this already, I'll just quote what I told another user:

                My claim regarding KV was a this:
                There are a number of members of the DK RKBA group who admit they do not vote Democratic.  This includes the founder and administrator of the group.
                If you had bothered to read and comprehend the link I provided, you would see this is completely true and indeed nothing more than a statement of facts to which KV himself has admitted.

                You appear unable to distinguish between the two following statements:

                "KV doesn't vote Democratic."

                and

                "KV votes Republican."

                I've never contended that the latter is true.  I've only said what KV himself has said -- that he doesn't support the Democratic Party.

                "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

                by FogCityJohn on Fri May 10, 2013 at 07:03:52 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  What HR? (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  PavePusher, Otteray Scribe

                  Way to double down.

                  Keep your creepy ideal of party loyalty.
                  I won't support someone that doesn't earn  my vote...and I would hope everyone else does the same.

                  Kinda a fan of that whole 'critical thinking' 'voting is important' 'my vote matters' 'Democracy' thing.

                  Clearly not your style.
                  Good luck with that.

                  Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                  by FrankRose on Fri May 10, 2013 at 07:10:29 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You're right! (0+ / 0-)

                    The HRs were all from another user.  For that, I apologize.

                    I don't find my idea of party loyalty creepy at all.  It's an issue of solidarity.  Sometimes my personal interests have to take a back seat to other things.  Those of us who are members of disfavored minority groups understand this.  

                    Did I like what Bill Clinton did with DADT and DOMA?  No.  Did I protest it?  Yes.  Did I vote to re-elect Clinton in 1996?  You better believe I did.  Handing complete control of the federal government over to the Republicans would have been a disaster too awful to contemplate -- for the environment, for labor, for reproductive rights, and for countless other issues.

                    Consider yourself fortunate to have the luxury of standing aside and watching the Republicans get elected.  Black and brown people, women, and LGBTs aren't so lucky.  We can't afford to let the Republicans gain control.  We have way too much at stake.

                    "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

                    by FogCityJohn on Fri May 10, 2013 at 07:18:49 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  There is too much at stake. (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      PavePusher, Tom Seaview

                      So leave us the fuck alone.
                      How in the name of all things holy do you support telling the US people that a rifle has to be banned from them because of some sick fuck?

                      Did you support warrantless wiretapping in the wake of 9/11?
                      Gitmo?
                      Torture?

                      Individual liberty is something that continues to increase in support whether you are talking about same sex marriage, equality, acceptance of different cultures/ideals, or gun rights.....and may god help those that do, because I sure as hell will not.

                      I & hundreds of millions of your fellow citizens have done nothing wrong. I will not support infringing on the liberties of innocent Americans for the crimes of murderers or the crimes of terrorists or simply 'because they are others' in any case.

                      If you want more & better dems, you need to understand this.

                      You have a choice....Democratic party, social liberty & progressive ideals or AWB.
                      You can't get both.

                      Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                      by FrankRose on Fri May 10, 2013 at 07:33:00 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Huh? (0+ / 0-)
                        Did you support warrantless wiretapping in the wake of 9/11?
                        Gitmo?
                        Torture?
                        Uh, no.  Why on earth would you think I had?

                        "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

                        by FogCityJohn on Fri May 10, 2013 at 07:39:18 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Because they were infringements of liberties on (4+ / 0-)

                          hundreds of millions of innocent people in the wake of a tragedy.

                          The same mindset is the justification of AWB.

                          Shit man, all rifles combined are responsible for less than half the numbers of murders per year than bare hands are.

                          So whatthefuck with the AWB?

                          Honestly...you have no idea how fucking insulting, pointless & aggravating the AWB is.

                          It's like I am in Bizarro-world....same shit I said to GOPers, I am now saying to Dems (online, mostly).....but not to Democrats where I live (where we have gay marriage & we voted for Obama both in the primaries & in the general)

                          You have no fucking idea what this has done.

                          Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                          by FrankRose on Fri May 10, 2013 at 07:48:25 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Sorry, but . . . (0+ / 0-)

                            holding a human being in captivity without access to family, legal assistance, or judicial process is not the same thing as the AWB.

                            Nor is the AWB in the same category of the intentional physical and psychological maltreatment of a powerless captive.

                            A limitation on particular kind of material possession (a limitation that does not currently exist) cannot be equated with Gitmo, Abu Grahib, or waterboarding.  Attempting to put them in the same category doesn't help your argument in the least, because it suggests an inability to appreciate the very real differences.  If the government came out and told me I couldn't own a computer, a phone, or a car, that would certainly be bad.  But I'd never claim it was anything nearly as serious as what the people in Guantanamo have suffered or that it was in the same ballpark as enduring torture.

                            "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

                            by FogCityJohn on Fri May 10, 2013 at 08:19:59 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I find Constitutional liberties to be (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            PavePusher, theatre goon

                            the same thing as Constitutional liberties.

                            Would enduring torture be worse than enduring warrantless wiretaps or AWB?
                            Of course. However torture would also be worse to endure than losing freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion.....or the freedom to marry whom you choose.
                            Does torture being worse than the loss of those liberties make concern for those liberties any less valid?

                            But have it your way......
                            You didn't mention warrantless wiretaps.
                            It would appear that we have found something equivalent.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Fri May 10, 2013 at 08:33:58 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  To answer this question: (0+ / 0-)
                            Does torture being worse than the loss of those liberties make concern for those liberties any less valid?
                            No.  But I'm of the view that one needs to keep some perspective.  I'm a hell of a lot more concerned about making sure that a person isn't tortured and abused in a prison in some God-forsaken corner of the world than I am, say, about whether I can marry the partner of my choice.  The latter is an injustice and a matter of de jure discrimination, but I'd never claim the inability to marry another man is even remotely as severe a deprivation of liberty as torture is.  To do so would be the height of self-absorption.  

                            These things are not equal in degree, even if you think they are of a kind.  It's a bit like Chief Justice Roberts claiming that considering a person's race in balancing a school's population is the same thing as Jim Crow.  Sure, race may be involved in both, but they are in no way comparable.

                            "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

                            by FogCityJohn on Fri May 10, 2013 at 08:55:51 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Then we are in agreement. (0+ / 0-)

                            Moving on......

                            With the issue of 'perspective' in mind:
                            Gun control will cost votes. How many is yet to be seen....but as elections are won on the margins......

                            Without discussing how many votes the will/won't lose, let us engage in a hypothetical:
                            Is gun control worth losing Democrats over? Is it worth losing the social liberalism they have in most other issues?
                            Is it worth losing the chance for progressive economics?

                            Quite frankly, how fucking important is the AWB to you?
                            Because it is really important to many....but they aren't the ones that are for it.

                            Is it worth it?

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Fri May 10, 2013 at 10:02:34 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  Goddamnit. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        PavePusher

                        "Individual liberty is something that continues to increase in support whether you are talking about same sex marriage, equality, acceptance of different cultures/ideals, or gun rights.....and may god help those that [don't support them], because I sure as hell will not"

                        Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                        by FrankRose on Fri May 10, 2013 at 08:13:43 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  John, the litmus test is down to this one issue: (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      oldpunk

                      Guns.

                      No TRUE Democrat would ever rest while guns remain in civilian hands.

                      So that leaves those who are, or are favorable towards black, brown, female, and/or LGBT people - but still want civilian gun possession - without a place in the Democratic Party.

                      You said as-much yourself:

                      I don't find my idea of party loyalty creepy at all.  It's an issue of solidarity.  Sometimes my personal interests have to take a back seat to other things.  Those of us who are members of disfavored minority groups understand this.  

                      Did I like what Bill Clinton did with DADT and DOMA?  No.  Did I protest it?  Yes.  Did I vote to re-elect Clinton in 1996?

                      In Europe, you'd have cast a no-confidence vote, and the PM would have been sacked.  There would have been no Clinton in '96, unless he tightened-up his act.

                      Your choice here in the US, and the one you offer, is:  
                      Right or wrong on an issue important to me, remember The Party knows better than you do.   On all issues.

                      We castigate Republicans when they say these things.
                      "Party Loyalty" = teabagger.

                      What happens when the best Democrat for the job, can't get elected AS a Democrat?

                      "The Party knows best" - sounds not-so-vaguely Soviet.
                      Sounds equally Republican.

                      I can think of a dozen elections where John or Lincoln Chafee (R-RI) would be the vastly more Liberal option to a sitting (D-__) politician.

                      If given a gay marriage-friendly (R) or a christian-conservative (D) on the November ballot?  I know where my ballot is being cast.
                      YMMV.

                      Oh, and thanks for the TJ HM in quoting NoWay in your above comments.

                      The country was in peril; he was jeopardizing his traditional rights of freedom and independence by daring to exercise them.” ~ Joseph Heller, Catch-22

                      by 43north on Sat May 11, 2013 at 06:18:47 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

    •  Uh. No. I've NEVER voted for anyone but a Democrat (9+ / 0-)

      and I've said that if it was a choice between staying home and Republican, it'd be staying home.

      Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

      by KVoimakas on Fri May 10, 2013 at 05:28:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I've replied to Frank with links. (0+ / 1-)
        Recommended by:
        Hidden by:
        Tom Seaview

        Suffice to say, the fact that you have voted Democratic in the past is different from voting for the Democratic Party in the present and the future.

        Since in the thread to which I linked, you referred to Republicans as your political "bedfellows," people can make their own judgments about where your party loyalties stand.

        "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

        by FogCityJohn on Fri May 10, 2013 at 05:51:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And with your inability to quote "the founder & (6+ / 0-)

          administrator [of RKBA]" people can make their own judgements about your honesty.

          But, don't you worry.....I will quote from your link:
          "Of course I think that Republicans are a bad thing. That's why I'd never vote for them."--KVoimakas.

          Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

          by FrankRose on Fri May 10, 2013 at 06:06:08 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Um . . . (0+ / 0-)

            Inability to quote?  Did you even read the link, Frank?  

            "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

            by FogCityJohn on Fri May 10, 2013 at 06:42:10 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I did. Hell, I even quoted him. (3+ / 0-)

              You, however, did not.

              When I make a mistake I admit it.....as you well know.

              Do you?

              Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

              by FrankRose on Fri May 10, 2013 at 06:51:51 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I would if I had. (0+ / 0-)

                But you apparently can't.  Because there's no way you could read that link and claim what I said was inaccurate.

                Oh wait, yes there is.  If you're completely intellectually dishonest, you could claim that.  

                "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

                by FogCityJohn on Fri May 10, 2013 at 06:55:08 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Uh...yes I did quote him. Don't worry I can do it (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  PavePusher, Tom Seaview, theatre goon

                  again.
                  "Of course I think that Republicans are a bad thing. That's why I'd never vote for them."--KVoimakas.

                  Someone is being dishonest.....but not 'intellectually dishonest'.
                  There is nothing intellectual about your dishonesty.
                  'Blatant', 'obvious', 'embarrassing', 'childish', 'petulant', 'indefensible'.....'amusing'; Yes.

                  'Intellectual'? No.

                  You should really learn to just admit a fucking mistake.
                  You don't have a reputation of perfection.
                  Suck it up, admit it & move on.

                  Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                  by FrankRose on Fri May 10, 2013 at 07:04:36 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

      •  Staying home = not voting Democratic. (0+ / 0-)

        That should be obvious, but apparently it's not.

        In the thread to which I linked, you plainly admitted you won't support the Democratic Party over the gun issue.  It's right there in pixels.

        But now two days after the diary was posted, you've called out your posse to engage in an HR fest.  SOP.

        "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

        by FogCityJohn on Fri May 10, 2013 at 06:52:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  1 HR isn't much of a 'fest'. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          theatre goon

          Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

          by FrankRose on Fri May 10, 2013 at 10:38:17 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I am in a concurrent conversation with (0+ / 0-)

          Frank Rose.

          Here

          He screams

          You think that every person in the USA should have their Second Amendment rights appealed
          Then when I tell him that's not what I am thinking he retorts
          Says a member of "Repeal or Amend the Second (0+ / 0-)

          Amendment".

          So it's OK for the RkBAers to accuse me of just wanting their guns because of a group listed on my page, but heaven forbid you find a link quoting Frank spouting GOP love.

          It's OK for them to know what I am thinking but not OK for you to remember what they actually said.

          Validate my parking Validate my parenting Validate my politics Validate my religion And I will be happy.

          by 88kathy on Sat May 11, 2013 at 10:00:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  You certainly must have links to back this up (6+ / 0-)

      please elucidate. We are still a reality based site last time I checked.

      Trade always exists for the traders. Any time you hear businessmen debating "which policy is better for America," don’t bend over. -George Carlin-

      by not4morewars on Fri May 10, 2013 at 05:31:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  See my reply to Frank. nt (0+ / 1-)
        Recommended by:
        Hidden by:
        Tom Seaview

        "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

        by FogCityJohn on Fri May 10, 2013 at 05:50:15 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  your link proves that your accusation is FALSE (5+ / 0-)
          Of course I think that Republicans are a bad thing. That's why I'd never vote for them.

          -KV, in your first link

          So, your claim is not true... and you are smearing a loyal liberal, and doubling down on it.
          I delivered an well-deserved HR to each comment in which you did so.
          And I have one left, if you want to keep playing.

          Things are more like they are now than they've ever been before...

          by Tom Seaview on Fri May 10, 2013 at 06:14:31 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Remedial reading. (0+ / 0-)

            Perhaps you could try it.

            My claim regarding KV was a this:

            There are a number of members of the DK RKBA group who admit they do not vote Democratic.  This includes the founder and administrator of the group.
            If you had bothered to read and comprehend the link I provided, you would see this is completely true and indeed nothing more than a statement of facts to which KV himself has admitted.  

            You appear unable to distinguish between the two following statements:

            "KV doesn't vote Democratic."

            and

            "KV votes Republican."

            I've never contended that the latter is true.  I've only said what KV himself has said -- that he doesn't support the Democratic Party.

            I don't expect you'll remove your HR, even though I've demonstrated that it's based on your misunderstanding.  I am, however, going to let your HR and this explanation stand as yet another example of how some of you folks operate.

            "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

            by FogCityJohn on Fri May 10, 2013 at 06:40:19 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  technically the founder didn't say that (8+ / 0-)

      He said sitting out an election in the future is a possibility, not that he has ever done so yet. Maybe you should walk it back eh?

      Further... Many RKBAers are very strong Dems and might take offense at being referred to that way. Just saying.

      How big is your personal carbon footprint?

      by ban nock on Fri May 10, 2013 at 07:13:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Of course I've voted for Republicans. (6+ / 0-)

      I used to be one.

      I'm pretty sure I've mentioned this a few years ago, but I'm not going to try to look it up.

      Regardless, it has little to do with how I vote now.  I vote on the issues, not simply straight party-tickets.  That would be irresponsible.  

      And people should be held accountable for that.

      Your hate-mail will be graded.

      by PavePusher on Fri May 10, 2013 at 08:47:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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