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  •  Name one person not in perpetual (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    annieli, gffish

    Student loan debt while working a Mc Job instead of in their chosen field?

    Right now if you are not already wealthy college is a failing bet.

    •  Of course (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Azazello, gffish, Nespolo

      Student load debt and the present economy are, indeed, dire threats to the state of higher education. I think, tho, that one needs to consider higher ed with a multitude of lenses, which isn't to say that there aren't problems with the current system.

      "Don't let it end like this. Tell them I said something." -the last words of Pancho Villa

      by Shef on Fri May 10, 2013 at 09:41:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The problems are insurmountable (0+ / 0-)

        There is no value in my getting a degree. Unless it is feeding the cash flow of textbook makers.

        •  That seems like an awfully extreme position. (9+ / 0-)

          I'll say that a lot of people--myself included--find great value in getting degrees. A quick reducto ad absurdum: Would you tell a budding neuroscientist that she shouldn't get a degree? That there is no value in it?

          I notice that you said in your getting a degree. I don't know you, so perhaps you're right. But, I sincerely doubt that your claim about no value generalizes.

          "Don't let it end like this. Tell them I said something." -the last words of Pancho Villa

          by Shef on Fri May 10, 2013 at 09:56:47 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'd show them student loan default rates. (0+ / 0-)

            As well as how wages have stagnated.

            I'd tell them to never get a student loan and if they still can go to school, millionaires might make it, go for it. But don't get a loan when the job to pay it off is not in hand and rock solid, another thing of the past.

            •  I teach at a university in WV.... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              annetteboardman, Eyesbright

              where people are poor but college is a bargain.  My students get good jobs or go on to professional schools, but they are in STEM fields generally.

              While it may not be worth it for all to attend college, I can see the difference it makes for rural kids to leave the holler and family and open their eyes to a bigger world.

              Some of the best barains are state schools, often because of lower tuition and fees, and committed faculty who get students really engaged in research and activities.

              Your results may vary, but I also think the arts can be important as well for many.  My daughter just finished her PhD and got a job paying in her field in design and my son is finishing his MFA in theatre and looking for work.  They have loans to pay off, but they are smart people with a future.

              You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

              by murrayewv on Sat May 11, 2013 at 10:59:57 AM PDT

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    •  Don't be silly. People graduate and get jobs (10+ / 0-)

      every year. There are still jobs for some grads and there are still scholarships for bright kids. It's sad that people look at higher education solely in economic terms. What about education for its own sake ?

      The free market is not the solution, the free market is the problem.

      by Azazello on Fri May 10, 2013 at 09:52:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The scholarships don't go to the (0+ / 0-)

        Brightest. They go to the richest.

        If brightness was valued I'd be degreed by now, my only hindrance is financial.

        •  asdf (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Azazello, gffish, Nespolo, Eyesbright

          That is certainly not true as a rule. There are, obviously, gross inequalities and problems with our system of higher education, but to claim that scholarships go to the richest is factually inaccurate.

          "Don't let it end like this. Tell them I said something." -the last words of Pancho Villa

          by Shef on Fri May 10, 2013 at 09:59:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No it isn't (0+ / 0-)

            Wealthy get the aid

            So morons with rich parents get the money I could have used to cure cancer or build a warp drive.

            I'm really fucking bitter about this so please feel free to keep a arguing reality with me.

            •  asdf (7+ / 0-)

              That is, indeed, a disturbing study. The article you link to doesn't say that scholarships go to the richest--full stop. It says that increasingly they are going to the wealthier students, which isn't at all the same thing.

              Again, there are gross inequalities in this system. You and many others have fallen prey to those inequalities, but that doesn't mean that there aren't scholarships that go to people who need them, nor does it mean that college is valueless.

              "Don't let it end like this. Tell them I said something." -the last words of Pancho Villa

              by Shef on Fri May 10, 2013 at 10:16:16 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  So I'm just not needy enough? (0+ / 0-)

                Or is the system BROKEN?

                While I'm bitching about the greed of colleges how come I have to go outside the US to read peer reviewed papers without a pay wall?

                •  because of the business model of publication..... (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Eyesbright, annetteboardman

                  which required professors to pay to get their work published as well as more to make it free for all- several thousand dollars for each service.  Or you can go to a campus library where they often have the papers for their subscription fee.  Or ask for interlibrary load- or even learn how to google for a pdf and see if the paper you want to read in put up on someone's web site.  

                  There are ways to do this- and i show my students how to do this starting in a first year seminar on critical thinking and science and society.

                  I am sorry things aren't working for you Horace, but your experience isn't universal.  You have your point of view, but people like me are out here working with kids, trying to help them get a scholarship or research experience, workin 60 hr weeks and taking hiring freezes and no salary raises in stride to help educate them.    I am not Polyanna, but I am not nothing either.

                  You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

                  by murrayewv on Sat May 11, 2013 at 11:08:39 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  I have written two funded NSF scholarship.... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            annetteboardman, Eyesbright

            grants that definitely don't go to the richest- my current one is for students with children.  They are in STEM fields.

            I think this is a big country and some folks need to get out of their boxes on this and other issues.  A college degree won't fix all your problems, but if you are willing to move and advance yourself it can open doors.

            You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

            by murrayewv on Sat May 11, 2013 at 11:03:03 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  That's not really true, not at all. (5+ / 0-)

          The highest-priced colleges, even the Ivies, are aware of that charge and give full-rides to smart kids of modest means just to show that they're not elitist. It may be all PR, but they do give opportunities to kids from lower-income families. How'd you do in high school, and what makes you think you're so brilliant ?

          The free market is not the solution, the free market is the problem.

          by Azazello on Fri May 10, 2013 at 10:03:02 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I'm getting my degree a week from tomorrow. (5+ / 0-)

          At forty-eight years old.

          Yes, I'll have some loans, but, really, not a lot--because I go to a state school and I did get some grants...mostly after I went back and proved I could do the work. You go to a community college (and I had no loans to take out to get through that) and transfer over with a 3.91, guess what? They find a way to take you.

          And I want to be a teacher, so, obviously, I didn't do this for the money :D.

          BTW, the only people I know with college degrees still in McJobs graduated within the last few years, except for one girl who got a degree in a field that would require her to move if she wanted a job, but she's being lazy about it :).

          First, tell me how your brilliant idea will pass the House. Second, tell me how Obama can get anything past the House. They we can talk.

          by ChurchofBruce on Fri May 10, 2013 at 10:25:36 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Tried and even cutting out housing (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Free Jazz at High Noon

            And living on the street I still could not afford the $300+for textbooks for each class ( they change the books every year so they can charge for a "new edition" I almost failed a math course because the assignments are different in used editions) -and waiting for half the semester to pass before I could replace that money with the pell grant.

    •  My grads from the past two years (5+ / 0-)

      who are not in college are working at a museum, as a departmental secretary, and in a youth advocacy organization (think CCC but less religious), and teaching English in South Korea.  So not in a McJob, none of them.  And they aren't wealthy, nor are we a wealthy college.  Past graduates are working for a state Planned Parenthood organization, in charge of fundraising for a large nonprofit dedicated to funding first-generation college students, and a couple are in the Peace Corps.  And then there are the others, who are in grad schools of various sorts -- library school, law school, art therapy, and art history.  One is the education director of a major museum, two more have tenure track teaching jobs at elite private universities, and others are finishing up their degrees or working contract positions in their undergraduate field.

      So I think your cynicism is not applicable here.  We are regularly listed as a national "best buy."  And we are not expensive.  

    •  I'm hoping the answer to that will be me (4+ / 0-)

      within the next month or so.

      Graduation today, no student debt piled up.  (Of course I've sucked dry my IRA's to pay for classes, so my net worth has declined a ton, and most college students don't have IRA's...)

      But I would sincerely suggest very carefully considering the career path from day one to ingoing college students, including internships the entire time if possible.  The hell-trap of coming out of college is 'lack of experience'.  If you can somehow arrange to avoid that, your prospects are far far better.

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