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View Diary: Florida Republican: speed up death penalty because "keeping people around" is so pointless (68 comments)

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  •  But (3+ / 0-)

    do you really think that public policy should be guided by the emotional outrage of the victims' loved ones? That's not a reasoned approach to making policy.

    And life in prison will also ensure that they don't murder anyone else.

    •  That's not what I said. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      I said:

      However, it's the "for certain" part that makes the DP part of the legal system worrisome, because unless you personally witnessed it, you can never be 100% certain.
      In other words, I'd personally have no problem whatsoever with the actual murderer dying, but I can't support it as policy unless there's some way of being absolutely certain of guilt beyond any doubt...which is almost never the case.

      And no, life in prison doesn't ensure that they won't kill someone else at all--prisoners kill other prisoners, occasionally they kill guards, once in awhile they escape and go on to kill other people. Not saying it happens often, but it certainly does happen.

      •  I'm lost too. (7+ / 0-)

        The standard for a guilty verdict is beyond a reasonable doubt, not beyond any doubt.  In addition, I strongly suspect that many juries have believed that there was no doubt when they convicted innocent men or women in the past.

        Since you don't get to change the standard for conviction, and since such a standard wouldn't necessarily protect some innocent people from wrongful conviction, as a voter, do you support candidates who seek to maintain the death penalty or do you prefer candidates who seek to end it?

        •  Well said. My response may be a cop-out, but... (2+ / 0-)
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          JBraden, kyril

          ...the truth is, I don't take their stance on the death penalty into account at all. A candidate being pro- or anti- the death penalty won't make me either more or less likely to vote for them.

          Their arguments supporting their position one way or the other might--this jackasses' "Let 'em FRY!" attitude is an instant turnoff, and would be regardless of party, for instance.

      •  All too abstract (3+ / 0-)
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        Russ Jarmusch, DSPS owl, kyril

        The death penalty does not work as a deterrent. That's been conclusively determined, and that's all you need to know to oppose it.

        Your private feelings are irrelevant. Some people would undoubtedly like to kill those who destroy irreplaceable works of art. For that matter, some people would like to kill those who violate noise bylaws. Should we let them?

        The "life for a life" justification is equally irrational. What do you do with someone who has taken two lives, then? Five? Ten? Who has killed someone and has a hostage? What do you do in that case? Offer to execute them in a more interesting way? And if we kill murderers, what should we do with rapists? arsonists? spouse beaters?

        What do you do if someone ends a life in all but name? "Life for a life" would execute someone who killed a single person, but let a person live who put a hundred people into a vegetative state, a living death. Would you rather be dead at once or after thirty years of being unconscious and attached to a battery of machines?

        What lies behind support for the death penalty is often little more than a desire to find some legitimate way of killing someone. Then, the foolish think, they will have "done something" about crime. Making two dead bodies grow where one grew before is undoubtedly "doing something," but it's something that has no utility in addressing the problem it is supposed to solve.

        Oh, and don't come back with the "If you...." argument. I have. But I can still maintain a separation between "I'd love to kill that guy" and "it is good public policy to kill that guy."

        "They smash your face in, and say you were always ugly." (Solzhenitsyn)

        by sagesource on Fri May 17, 2013 at 10:03:56 AM PDT

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    •  No it won't (1+ / 0-)
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      Dogs are fuzzy
      And life in prison will also ensure that they don't murder anyone else.
      I'm anti-death penalty, but this is a poor argument because it's factually wrong.

      "Let’s just move on, treat everybody with firmness, fairness, dignity, compassion and respect. Let’s be Marines." - Sgt. Maj Michael Barrett on DADT repeal

      by kyril on Fri May 17, 2013 at 03:42:07 PM PDT

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    •  Life in prison ensures what? I hate to break it to (0+ / 0-)

      you, Justin but that is just your assumption and has no basis in reality or the reality of prison life,

      life in prison will also ensure that they don't murder anyone else.
         Oh, will it? Really?
          I'm not going to sugar coat things here- first of all I am pro death penalty. I have personally known two people who were given the DP and after decades locked away for crimes they did not commit, found innocent- so this isn't some decision I've made all willy nilly based on some biblical or moral principle.
         My thoughts and beliefs about the DP are based upon what I know and have seen personally.
         Life in prison.  Ever been in prison? For even a single day?
         Unless you have then your perception of how prison life really is is extremely flawed at best. You think "lifers" are magically segregated from the common run of the mill criminal that wrote bad checks, stole a car, broke into the store down the street from you?
         I'm sure you probably wince at that word, 'segregation'
      but here's a news flash- the ONLY prisoners that are segregated from the entire general population by crimes are, guess.... those on death row.
         Life means just that- the rest of, yo ass is leaving this place in a hearse. At what point exactly do you think someone doing life is no longer a danger to others? Because they're locked up?
         Those same evil, heinous, atrocious folks that committed the unspeakable crimes for which they are sentence to life are in prison with your neighbors kid that stole a car, your brother that cheated on his taxes, your friend that didn't pay his child support, the guy you used to buy your weed from.
         The difference is this- all of those folks will get out, they have a predetermined date on which they'll be released unless they fuck up- gives them incentive to act right while they're in prison.
         Lifers? What do they have to lose? Not one freaking thing, they're never coming out, period. They have no incentive to act right and being that they never will get out, have very little regard or respect for those that some day will. They continue to be a threat to the entire prison population as well as those that work there.
         The difference is you've now narrowed down their available list of possible victims to fellow prisoners and guards who cannot possible simply avoid them nor escape their wrath should they decided to go off the deep end- again...
         You may feel safer with these folks out of your society but you seem to forget that prison is it's own micro society. Locking away some evil sick fuck does not erase what they are, it only changes the location at which they can practice or demonstrate just how fucked up and evil they truly are.
         The day the asshole who killed my kid in a heinous and brutally violent multiple homicide got sentenced I was reading news on my computer before heading to court. I left in such a rush that I left my computer on and hadn't  read the story that was up until later on that night when I got back home.
         The perpetrator was given two death penalty sentences. He cannot and will not ever have the opportunity to kill another person, even in prison, because his sorry ass is and will forever be locked away on death row until the day he's executed.
         And here's that story:
      A Florida Department of Corrections officer was stabbed to death by an inmate Sunday night at a prison near Lake City.

      I want you to go to the link and see the kids face, yes, kid, 24 years old. Father and soon to be married 24 year old kid who was what? Doing his freaking job. Died because of what?
      Franklin -- who was serving a life sentence on several charges including the 2004 murder of a Bethune-Cookman College student in Daytona Beach, battery on a law enforcement officer and escape -- will be transferred to a maximum security prison and the incident will be investigated by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement.
         I've actually been in prison, I'm not just talking out of some imaginary feel good place from the outside looking in, I was there. I know just how nasty lifers can be and you couple that with the fact they're in and never getting out gives them exactly what to lose?
         Segregation is a horrible word on this site to use but go ahead, what's your answer? Segregate them? You do realize that there are laws regarding the segregation of prisoners, correct? Can only segregate not by severity of crimes but by security levels.
         So, I ask you, next time you hear of a co workers kid going to prison for being an addict, your cousin for habitual traffic offenses, your neighbor for stealing cable- are you okay with them being locked away with someone doing life without parole? Someone who has nothing left to lose? How about yourself? Did their crime deserve such a thing?
         I have a good friend that was released after doing 20+ years thanks to the Innocence Project that pushed his case. I've had many a conversation with him regarding the death penalty- may blow your mind here but he still believes very strongly in it.
         Why? Because times have changed, technology and procedures changed regarding the collection of evidence and the analysis of evidence now versus all of the cases you have seen exonerated is a difference of night and day. 20 years ago there may have been lingering questions- now? None. When you see a person sentenced to death now you can bet that flat out, they did it, period.

      Be the kind of person your dog thinks you are.

      by teabaggerssuckbalz on Sat May 18, 2013 at 05:37:05 AM PDT

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