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  •  do you know what's like watergate? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dinotrac

    Nothing. Watergate was unique.

    "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

    by Greg Dworkin on Sat May 18, 2013 at 09:50:27 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Everything -- EVERYTHING -- is unique. (0+ / 0-)

      We always have an out when we want it.

      It's why we are doomed to repeat our mistakes.

      LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

      by dinotrac on Sun May 19, 2013 at 06:48:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  oh, bullshit (0+ / 0-)

        a. no such "mistake" has happened here

        b. you have no evidence anything other than mild incompetence took place, and neither does anyone else.

        c. you only point is that "if"it did, it would be bad. But it didn't. So that leaves you and Republicans with a great big nothing burger.

        d. no traction with the public. See a, b and c as to why.

        "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

        by Greg Dworkin on Sun May 19, 2013 at 12:31:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  What's the word progressives love to use? (0+ / 0-)

          Oh, that's right: Deniers.

          Y'all talk a big "Truth to power" game, but only when it suits your purposes.

          LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

          by dinotrac on Sun May 19, 2013 at 02:13:14 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  this is put up or shut up stuff (0+ / 0-)

            there is no evidence of abuse of power. None.

            Post it if there is but you have nothing, so there's no links.

            Mind you, if any of your wild and unfounded accusations were true, different story. But, and here's the gist, they ain't true.

            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

            by Greg Dworkin on Sun May 19, 2013 at 03:50:09 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well, I suppose you could be admitting that the (0+ / 0-)

              President is a craven coward, rushing to sack an IRS Director when nothing bad happened.

              And, I suppose, calling to ask why any phone records are left unexamined. Hey! They don't need warrants for that, so -- it's got to be ok, right?

              And *blush* so we lose a few folks from the Witness Protection Program.  So they might actually, ummm, be terrorists.  Nobody's perfect, right?

              Look -- all of this stuff might be nothing at all, but this is NOT the way you would react if the President's name were Bush instead of Obama.

              LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

              by dinotrac on Sun May 19, 2013 at 05:18:34 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I love how when you have nothing (0+ / 0-)

                you make stuff up to justify why you must be right.

                "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                by Greg Dworkin on Sun May 19, 2013 at 09:24:20 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yeah, I just don't get it, do I? (0+ / 0-)

                  Maybe taking care of people like me will be the next big improvement in our trek to social nirvana.

                  Whisk me away to facility where I can learn the error of my ways and come to understand the futility of asking questions.
                  I'll be we all get together, hold hands and chant.  How did that go again? Oh, I remember -- "One people, one nation, one leader"

                  LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                  by dinotrac on Mon May 20, 2013 at 02:55:28 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  no you don't get it (0+ / 0-)

                    stick to the facts. You made up a story in your mind and you're sticking to it. Every comment demonstrates that, but adds no facts to justify the fantasy.

                    Covering facts versus the ‘narrative’

                    This week’s focus on narrative has been infuriating to critics like Washington Post blogger Greg Sargent, a liberal writer who points out that reporters are “imposing simplistic narratives on complex, disparate situations.” Both Politico’s Alexander Burns and John F. Harris and the Post’s Karen Tumulty, for instance, frame the scandals as part of a narrative in which Obama is too aggressive in pursuing his political and ideological objectives—but no one has yet produced evidence of high-level White House involvement in either the IRS or AP cases. (As a result, Obama’s opponents are already attempting to link him to other scandals using vague language about how he gave “cues” through his “tone” and created “a mood, a tone… an atmosphere”.) Followup coverage has similarly framed the White House response as an attempt to “seize control of the narrative” and “shift in its favor the narrative.”

                    Others, like the Post’s Ezra Klein, have noted the contradiction between the narrative of scandal and the lack of evidence of high-level misconduct. The strength of evidence matters, of course, but it does not solely determine what does or does not become a media scandal; these are political events, not courtroom trials. That’s why the scope of the scandal is already growing to encompass conspiracy theories about George Soros, leaks to the Obama campaign, and suggestions of politically-motivated audits of Romney donors. Scandals can quickly take on a life of their own.

                    http://www.cjr.org/...

                    "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                    by Greg Dworkin on Mon May 20, 2013 at 04:44:20 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  great quotes for you (0+ / 0-)

                    from people who were there.

                    http://mediamatters.org/...

                    Carl Bernstein: "We Have No Evidence" That Obama Used The IRS For Retribution. Politico reported that Carl Bernstein, one of the Washington Post reporters who broke the Watergate scandal, deflated the idea that the IRS targeting was comparable to Watergate.

                    Former Nixon White House Counsel: Anyone Comparing Obama To Nixon Is "Challenged In Their Understanding Of History." John Dean, a former top aide to President Nixon, told The Boston Globe that "[t]here are no comparisons" between the IRS' actions and Watergate.

                    Wash. Post On Watergate: "Mr. Obama Has Done Nothing Of The Kind." The Washington Post editorial board wrote on May 16 that with regards to Watergate, "Mr. Obama has done nothing of the kind," in an editorial headlined "Obama a new Nixon? Oh, get serious."

                    Associate Academic Director, University Of California: "The Comparisons To Nixon Are Hyperbolic." In a May 17 op-ed for The Washington Post, Matthew Dallek, associate academic director at the University of California Washington Center, wrote that Watergate "remains a scandal unlike any other in modern times":

                    "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                    by Greg Dworkin on Mon May 20, 2013 at 06:05:40 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You are creating straw men and ignoring the facts (0+ / 0-)

                      that are there.

                      I believe it's true that Our Dear Leader was not personally involved in any of this.  

                      Let us not forget, however, that President Nixon loudly denied any personal involvement in or knowledge of the  Watergate Scandal.  That didn't keep investigators from looking into the facts, and it shouldn't have.  The investigation was needed even if Mr. Nixon had been completely clean.  The ability to govern is not merely a matter of laws, actions and facts, but of confidence in leadership and the moral authority to exercise it.

                      Apologists make the choir happy.  Is that enough?

                      LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                      by dinotrac on Mon May 20, 2013 at 06:41:23 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  the opposite (0+ / 0-)

                        the facts are as the quoters stated, but I'll make it real simple for you.

                        A question was raised
                        It should be investigated

                        on that virtually everyone agrees

                        There's nothing there after investigating except for some incompetence and some murky reading of how to interpret citizen's united. why should political organizations masquerading as social welfare get a pass? But why should more conservative than liberal groups get dinged? Fair questions, but no political motivation found after investigation, and admitted to by Mitch McConnell and Dave camp (Republcians) on the sunday shows. They can not, after trying, link it to Obama.

                        Repeat: no political vendetta, just difficulty with managing the murky question in a competent fashion.

                        Apologist? Bullshit, just like the entire thrust of your comment. Both I and the American people see a partisan witch hunt, except if you're a Republican.  if you're a Republican, you approach it like you approach Obama's birth certificate, damn the facts.

                        "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                        by Greg Dworkin on Mon May 20, 2013 at 07:45:01 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Oh -- I see. You are satisfied with the internal (0+ / 0-)

                          investigation.

                          Was there ever an apologist who admitted to being one?

                          LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                          by dinotrac on Mon May 20, 2013 at 07:53:14 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  heh (0+ / 0-)

                            when did you stop beating your wife, dino? prove you're not a child molester.

                            Empty comments, empty concept.

                            come back when you have something. You have nothing because there's nothing there.

                            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                            by Greg Dworkin on Mon May 20, 2013 at 08:26:57 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  We've got a whole thread here of see no evil, (0+ / 0-)

                            on a site full of the same thing.

                            LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                            by dinotrac on Mon May 20, 2013 at 09:22:47 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  So long as everything's OK, I'm sure you'll love (0+ / 0-)

                            this one, too:

                            http://www.washingtonpost.com/...

                            It is just so great to live in the land of the free.

                            LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                            by dinotrac on Mon May 20, 2013 at 10:18:27 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  although legal (0+ / 0-)

                            I find more to be concerned about with the AP thing than the IRS.

                            But the IRS story from the WaPo is also worth a read. Pretty much lays out the issues.

                            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                            by Greg Dworkin on Mon May 20, 2013 at 01:55:18 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  by the way, while you play pretend games, (0+ / 0-)

                            people are realizing the IRS implications, the real ones:

                            To many on Capitol Hill, the burgeoning scandal dogging the IRS looks like a simple case of partisan political targeting by an overbearing federal agency.

                            But the IRS controversy has laid bare a far more serious and far-reaching problem: the agency’s utter failure to keep pace with drastically changing campaign finance laws. For decades, the IRS has taken heat for its muddy rules governing politically active tax-exempt groups, a recent CQ Weekly story notes. ...

                            Congress shares the blame for the IRS mess, the article concludes, but lawmakers won’t be able to ignore the questions swirling around politically active tax-exempt groups indefinitely. Such organizations are already amassing their war chests for 2014 and 2016 — even as members of Congress fixated on scoring political points kick the can yet again down the road.

                            http://atr.rollcall.com/...

                            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                            by Greg Dworkin on Mon May 20, 2013 at 02:01:42 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Um...That is the root of the problem. (0+ / 0-)

                            The IRS has incredible power to demolish the Constitution.  Clearly, no checks are in place to prevent the demolition.

                            And -- Who's in charge?

                            LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                            by dinotrac on Mon May 20, 2013 at 02:28:49 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  see the problem, fix the problem (0+ / 0-)

                            but your comment is an admission of the problem not some nutty power grabbing conspiracy.

                            But hey, apparently, that's what happens with a certain world view (and why I cite birthers):

                            Crazy as these theories are, those propagating them are not — they’re quite normal, in fact. But recent scientific research tells us this much: if you think one of the theories above is plausible, you probably feel the same way about the others, even though they contradict one another. And it’s very likely that this isn’t the only news story that makes you feel as if shadowy forces are behind major world events.

                            “The best predictor of belief in a conspiracy theory is belief in other conspiracy theories,” says Viren Swami, a psychology professor who studies conspiracy belief at the University of Westminster in England. Psychologists say that’s because a conspiracy theory isn’t so much a response to a single event as it is an expression of an overarching worldview.or, instead, you can

                            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                            by Greg Dworkin on Tue May 21, 2013 at 04:36:12 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  It is nothing of the sort. (0+ / 0-)

                            I don't believe that there is some nutty power-grabbing conspiracy, but that is beside the point.

                            LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                            by dinotrac on Tue May 21, 2013 at 06:49:59 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  to put it more bluntly (0+ / 0-)

                            in your zeal to blame Obama, you need to decide which competing  and incompatible theory is correct: he is Nixon/Hitler/Stalin, or no one is in charge.

                            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                            by Greg Dworkin on Tue May 21, 2013 at 04:37:48 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Other than the basic "buck stops here" kind of (0+ / 0-)

                            blame, where have I laid any blame on Obama.

                            You are purposely putting words into my mouth in order to run away from the basic facts: Democrats prefer to sweep things under the rug if possible.  That tends to be a bad idea for the innocent.

                            LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                            by dinotrac on Tue May 21, 2013 at 06:53:17 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  nonsense, with poll data (0+ / 0-)

                            Demcrats prefer to deal with root causes and fix the problem instead of invoke conspiracy theories and pretend there's more to the story than there is (especially when the story is bad enough as it stands).

                            Summary of this entire argument in today's WaPo poll, without the rancor and badmouthing you are bringing to this :

                             

                            But although most Republicans and independents critical of the IRS activity consider it illegal, Democrats are more apt to view the targeting of the groups as inappropriate but not illegal.
                            Fix the problem, don't fantasize about the problem. That's not 'sweeping it under the rug", that's avoiding conspiracy theory.

                            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                            by Greg Dworkin on Tue May 21, 2013 at 07:03:32 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Cherry-picking again, I see. (0+ / 0-)

                            Thanks for the link, though.

                            LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                            by dinotrac on Tue May 21, 2013 at 07:08:13 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  not cherry picking (0+ / 0-)

                            cherry pickers don't supply links. Lose the frickin' pejoratives.

                            here's a Harwood tweet for you:

                            Perhaps unsurprising that a political system more awash in partisanship than ever finds it hard to accept anyone could act for other reasons
                            @JohnJHarwood via web
                            Funny this is the "partisan" (me) gets it, the so-called (but not really) "non partisan" (you) gets it wrong.

                            Look in the mirror.

                            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                            by Greg Dworkin on Tue May 21, 2013 at 09:27:49 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  On second look, I did mischaracterize your post. (0+ / 0-)

                            I apologize for that.

                            Your selection clearly points out that non-Democrats are more critical than Democrats of the IRS actions.  Which -- incidentally, is what I've been saying.

                            There were some interesting questions in that poll, by the way.  After seeing the results, I feel quite vindicated.

                            The questions:

                            Q: Changing topics, in general do you think the federal government is doing more to (protect) the rights of average Americans or more to (threaten) the rights of average Americans?

                            Q: Do you think the Obama administration (is honestly disclosing what it knows about what occurred in Benghazi) or (is trying to cover up the facts)?

                            Q: As you may know it's been disclosed that the IRS singled out some conservative political groups for extra questions about their tax status. Do you think it was appropriate or inappropriate for the IRS to do this?

                            Q: (IF INAPPROPRIATE) Given what you know, do you think this was illegal, or inappropriate, but not illegal?

                            Q: In dealing with this situation with the IRS, do you think the Obama administration (is honestly disclosing what it knows about what occurred) or (is trying to cover up the facts)?

                            LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                            by dinotrac on Tue May 21, 2013 at 09:57:37 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  you need to see the big picture (0+ / 0-)

                            the poll was very good.

                            Big picture is "this bothers everyone, but perspective is needed. Not Nixonian."

                            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                            by Greg Dworkin on Tue May 21, 2013 at 02:12:41 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I would say the same to you, and the general (0+ / 0-)

                            Democratic rush to say "Nothing to see here."

                            Very Nixonian.

                            Never trust somebody who say "Trust me."

                            LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                            by dinotrac on Tue May 21, 2013 at 02:20:59 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  why are you so dense? (0+ / 0-)

                            there is no Democratic rush to say "Nothing to see here." Inappropriate IRS actions (due to bad law and unclear regulation) is not "nothing", or "apologist" or any of your other asinine charges.

                            There is a Democratic pushback to the idea Obama did this for political reasons. That's what Nixonian means. Not only is it out of character for Obama, there is no data to support the concept. The only thing you keep repeating is "he hasn't proved a negative so Nixon."

                            No juice to the charge. Dismissed until/unless you have data to support it, and of course, you don't because it doesn't exit.

                            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                            by Greg Dworkin on Tue May 21, 2013 at 08:11:50 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  There is a Democratic full-court press to prevent (0+ / 0-)

                            anything that might provide a whiff of the untoward.

                            No juice to the charge.
                            Nothing to see here.
                            Please go away.

                            Trust us.

                            LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                            by dinotrac on Tue May 21, 2013 at 08:29:43 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  vague handwaving (0+ / 0-)

                            that's all you got? that's why the public won't buy it.

                            the only thing Dems are holding people to is the facts. if you have a problem with that, you're a republican.

                            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                            by Greg Dworkin on Wed May 22, 2013 at 04:54:41 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Public won't buy it? (0+ / 0-)

                            You really have been cherry-picking the polls, haven't you?

                            LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                            by dinotrac on Wed May 22, 2013 at 05:31:58 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                  •  ...and here's the polling data (0+ / 0-)
                    • The IRS scandal: Among overall Americans, 61 percent say what Obama has said about the matter is mostly or completely true, versus only 35 percent who say it’s mostly or completely false. Among Republicans, 68 percent say what Obama has claimed is false, and among conservatives, 56 percent say this. But independents believe what Obama has said is true by 58-36, and moderates believe this by 71-25.
                    Meanwhile, among overall Americans, 55 percent say the IRS acted on its own in targeting conservative groups, while only 37 percent say the White House ordered it.  Among Republicans, 62 percent say the White House ordered it, and among conservatives, 54 percent believe this. But independents believe the IRS acted on its own by 53-36, and moderates believe this by 65-29.

                    • The Benghazi story: Among overall Americans, 50 percent believe early statements about the attacks by Obama officials reflected what the administration believed at the time, while 44 percent believe they intentionally misled. Among Republicans, 76 percent believe they intentionally misled, and among conservatives, 65 percent believe this. But moderates believe the statements reflected the administration’s beliefs by 60-35. (Among independents this isn’t as pronounced, but still, a plurality sides with the White House, 47-44.)

                    These two stories are presidential scandals only in the minds of majorities of Republicans. This helps explain why Obama’s approval is holding.

                    http://www.washingtonpost.com/...

                    see also birtherism, which is what you should compare this to. Normal people (absent any, y'know, proof and evidence and facts) agree with me.

                    "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                    by Greg Dworkin on Mon May 20, 2013 at 06:40:40 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Your cherry-picking betrays you (0+ / 0-)

                      If you want to use that poll for support, you really need to include the whole picture, not just the parts you like.

                      So -- for a little balance, let's pick a different group of cherries to fill in the gaps.

                      From http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/...

                      Only 42% of the public is satisfied with how the Obama administration has handled the September attack in Benghazi, Libya
                      And only 37% say that congressional Republicans are overreacting in their handling of the matter, with 59% saying they've reacted appropriately.
                      It's the same story on the IRS controversy, with 54% saying the GOP in Congress has not overplayed its hand.
                      Americans appear to be taking all three controversies very seriously, with 55% saying the IRS and Benghazi matters are very important to the nation and 53% saying the same thing about the AP case.

                      LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                      by dinotrac on Mon May 20, 2013 at 06:51:47 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  so? (0+ / 0-)

                        the American people agree it's fair to look, and so do I, but having looked, agree with the President except if you are a Republican.

                        "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                        by Greg Dworkin on Mon May 20, 2013 at 07:46:52 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  You must not agree with the President. (0+ / 0-)

                          After all, he sacked the IRS head and said the actions were outrageous.

                          And -- seriously: "so?"

                          I'm not the one who pulled a poll out of his pocket to buttress his position. I merely filled in a few skipped over facts.

                          Including the fact that Americans think this is a serious matter and that the GOP has not over-reacted to it.

                          Unless, of course, you're a Republican.

                          LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                          by dinotrac on Mon May 20, 2013 at 07:51:45 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I agree incompetence cannot be tolerated (0+ / 0-)

                            and am pleased he acted swiftly

                            Thanks for pointing out that everyone is unanimous that the IRS screwed up.

                             but there's no political misuse of power except if you are a republican and hate the idea Obama is President.

                            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                            by Greg Dworkin on Mon May 20, 2013 at 08:29:15 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  That statement requires blinders. (0+ / 0-)
                            but there's no political misuse of power
                            That might be true -- but it's probably not, at least not at the level of the people actually doing it.

                            True or not, the straight-faced assertion reveals far more than any investigation to date.

                            LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                            by dinotrac on Mon May 20, 2013 at 09:21:40 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  yeah (0+ / 0-)

                            that we are reality based.

                            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                            by Greg Dworkin on Mon May 20, 2013 at 01:53:11 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

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