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View Diary: GOP "Scamdal"-mongering Just Reminds People Why They Hate Republicans (250 comments)

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  •  Don't hate the people (14+ / 0-)

    Hate the idea.  Our enemy isn't our fellow citizens, our enemy is conservatism.  

    Win over people who vote for republicans and the criminals who run their party won't have the power to ruin our lives.  Those people aren't any different than we are, they just bought into something we know is wrong.  They got conned.  Let's turn them around, help them out, y'know?

    •  While we can appreciate the sentiment (14+ / 0-)

      the fact is that most of those people know what they vote for is wrong - they just don't give a shit.  They sell their country for tax cuts, and just wave away the consequences as God's Will.  They don't believe they have any responsibilities to their fellow citizens.  They believe America is their private property, and everyone else had better just do what they're told.

      Process defines product.

      by Troubadour on Sun May 19, 2013 at 04:50:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  dunno (14+ / 0-)

        I know a lot of people who call themselves conservative (live in AZ) and most of them are fine human beings who tend to see things from particular perspective which I think is limited and misguided.  I don't hate them (and they don't hate me either).  They've been getting brainwashed for a few generations, the odd talking point or latest example of hypocrisy isn't gonna change their views much.  But I win points all the time and somebody like last years "it'll destroy the sanctity of marriage" dude is saying "I don't care what anybody does in their private life, none of my damn business" this year.

        I love it when they ask me "How can you be a liberal?" and I get to answer that conservatives might sound sensible but they're always wrong (on slavery, on suffrage, on child labor, pretty much everything important --going back far enough conservatives were against founding america in the first place.

        •  "Limited and misguided." (8+ / 0-)

          How many people who put on SS uniforms could that have described?  Most of them had normal families, plenty of them were reputedly great company, fine friends, good fathers, courteous neighbors, etc.  At some point you have to draw a line and say people are responsible for their actions.  Republicans know what they do is wrong - and we know they know because they demonstrate that knowledge every day.  You don't burn evidence when you think what you did was right.  They operate exactly like criminals because they are criminals.  Plain old run-of-the-mill criminals.

          Process defines product.

          by Troubadour on Sun May 19, 2013 at 05:18:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm just talking about ordinary people (6+ / 0-)

            Working schlubbs like me.  Some of them don't think much about anything except what the teevee told them.  

            They aren't bad people.  They are as oppressed as anybody else is.  They've been manipulated and lied to, they just don't know it most of the time.

            Are there hideous republicans?  Sure (I'm not saying we should sing Kumbaya with the KKK).  But most of them aren't.  They're just people who vote for the people who want their votes the most.  Who talk to them in their own language.  Liberals (like me) come around and tell them they're wrong and tend to offend them so they stick with the party that doesn't tell them they're shit all the time.

            Unfortunately, a lot of americans are so busy taking care of their families that they don't have much time for political theory.  That doesn't make them bad people, even if it does allow them to be misled.

            •  Give your fellow citizens enough credit (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              MrJersey, dilireus

              to hold them accountable for their actions as citizens.  There's being deceived, and then there's willful, malignant ignorance.  The fact that we're smarter than them doesn't mean they don't understand things like "Torture is evil" and "Don't start wars."  They're not children: They're corrupt, irresponsible adults who don't want to know anything, and don't feel obligated to learn.

              Process defines product.

              by Troubadour on Sun May 19, 2013 at 06:02:14 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  And some of them would say similar simplistic (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Beetwasher

                things to rationalize hating on folks like us.

                I don't think it (hating on people about politics) gets us anywhere other than the mess we find ourselves in.

                •  There is such a thing as reality. (4+ / 0-)

                  You can't just derive your morality by averaging what people say.  The GOP is objectively amoral and psychopathic, and there is no possible way to call the positions taken by its grassroots (let alone officialdom) legitimate differences of opinion.  They support torture, call for mass-murder and wars of aggression, they deny science and demand the legal imposition of their sectarian religious beliefs, on and on.  

                  They are wrong.  They are Bad People.  I know it's hard for gentle souls to admit, but Bad People exist, and not all of them advertise that fact in glowing neon signs on their foreheads.  They reveal themselves when you ask them to make important decisions, and prove where their values lay.  Just because you like someone who is Republican doesn't mean they're not evil.  Al Capone was to all reports a very fun guy to be around.  So were a number of Nazi generals.  So, I'm sure, were plenty of Klansmen.

                  Process defines product.

                  by Troubadour on Sun May 19, 2013 at 07:00:07 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  one of the things I find most distasteful (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Beetwasher, JerryNA

                    about the right is that they have a tendency to claim that their monolithic version of "truth" (whether it's based on "patriotism" or "christian values" or "constitutionality") entitles them to demonize people who don't see things they way they do.

                    •  And one of the things about our side (3+ / 0-)

                      that makes us so vulnerable to the heinousness of the right - and the progress we make so fragile - is that sometimes we tolerate intolerance, try to pacify insatiable greed, and try to argue with shameless liars who take sadistic pleasure in exploiting our naivete.  

                      We forget that the consequences of these decisions are real, and every liar we tolerate is some number of honest people who end up deceived by that tolerance into believing that there are legitimate disagreements between science and Creationism, climate science and climate denial, human rights and the "patriotism" of fascists, etc.  Every mass-murdering piece of dogshit we try to rationalize as misguided is a pile of human corpses stacked mountain-high.  That's what I've never understood about pacifism - it claims to be moral, and yet refuses all responsibility for the consequences on third parties of failing to fight evil.

                      And there's just no possible moral conception where what the GOP does is not evil incarnate.  None.  Try to imagine any self-consistent moral code they could possibly adopt, and they will cut it in half and apply all the inconvenient, unpleasant obligations to others and all the good, convenient, desirable things only to themselves.  Their morality is the morality of bacteria - i.e., none.  Everything they do is autopilot instinct for power.

                      Process defines product.

                      by Troubadour on Sun May 19, 2013 at 10:36:18 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  The People Are Not Evil, But The Ignorance Is (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Urizen, Chi, Troubadour, JerryNA

                    Perhaps if it's willful it's even moreso. But there are still some people, even avowed Republicans who are not beyond redemption.  I have a tough time with words like "evil". I think it applies more often to ideas and concepts and behaviors and not necessarily specifically to people, though there are some people to whom it can apply specifically, IMO (Cheney and his ilk come to mind).

                    This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music

                    by Beetwasher on Mon May 20, 2013 at 08:47:32 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  People are what they do. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Beetwasher

                      Process defines product.

                      by Troubadour on Mon May 20, 2013 at 12:24:45 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  And Their Behavior is Often Complex and (0+ / 0-)

                        Contradictory and not easily fitted into tight little categories and labels.

                        Does a vote for George Bush negate a lifetime of exemplary military service for example?

                        This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music

                        by Beetwasher on Mon May 20, 2013 at 01:39:42 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Um, yes? (0+ / 0-)

                          Here's what you just asked, rephrased to be more detailed: "Does endorsing and materially contributing to the mass-murder of hundreds of thousands of men, women, and children; the torture and brutal murders of thousands of detainees; and the overthrow of the US Constitution negate a verbal oath to do the opposite taken by members of the military?"  The answer is yes, yes, a thousand times yes.

                          Process defines product.

                          by Troubadour on Mon May 20, 2013 at 01:46:12 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  That's A Judgement Call, You Judge Harshly (0+ / 0-)

                            I'm more forgiving. It's your perogative to be harsh, but I accept that people are more complex than that, and understand that most people are not as deep or aware of the implications of all their actions. Does that excuse their behavior? No. Does it put it in context? Yes.

                            I don't judge people like that. I recognize complexity of human behavior.  I allow that people can learn, grow and change and achieve redemption, otherwise we are all, everyone of us almost certaionly guilty by association by allowing our country to commit any number of atrocities.

                            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music

                            by Beetwasher on Mon May 20, 2013 at 02:23:19 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

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