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View Diary: Liberal Confession - I handled guns! (223 comments)

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  •  guns are cool. (0+ / 0-)

    In responsible hands and used for responsible purposes, guns are great, for people who are liberal or otherwise.  I think only a few liberals are actually extreme enough to be against guns... we just want them regulated the way any potentially-dangerous item should be.

    I own a couple and plan to buy more.  But, I don't really need anything that fires 100 bullets a minute, because there's no actual civilian use for such a thing.   Anybody who'd hunt with such a weapon is a skill-less asshole who's got no business in the woods, and anybody who needs more than a handgun or shotgun to defend their life and loved ones is in bigger need of a plane ticket than a weapon, because they're in Somalia.

    "Glenn Beck ends up looking like a fat, stupid child. His face should be wearing a chef's hat on the side of a box of eclairs. " - Doug Stanhope

    by Front Toward Enemy on Mon May 20, 2013 at 01:12:16 PM PDT

    •  It seems you don't know much about hunting laws... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      theatre goon

      or self-defense, or that the Second Amendment has nothing to do with hunting.

      Your hate-mail will be graded.

      by PavePusher on Mon May 20, 2013 at 09:53:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  if you need to hunt with a 30-round magazine... (0+ / 0-)

        ...then you absolutely suck at being a hunter.   And if you can't defend yourself in a civilian situation with a standard weapon, then I'd count that as natural selection at work.  As a gun owner who can hit what he aims at, I do know that much.  

        And I don't give a fuck that the second amendment is not about hunting, because that's not what I'm talking about.  I'm talking about what guns a person would logically have a use for... not what they might want.  

        "Glenn Beck ends up looking like a fat, stupid child. His face should be wearing a chef's hat on the side of a box of eclairs. " - Doug Stanhope

        by Front Toward Enemy on Tue May 21, 2013 at 02:32:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Standard weapon? My Thompson is (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          theatre goon, PavePusher, ER Doc

          a 'standard' weapon and it has 30 round mags or 50 round mags. It's my home defense firearm if I don't move out of the room.

          Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

          by KVoimakas on Tue May 21, 2013 at 03:12:10 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  you're gonna fire a Thompson in your house? (0+ / 0-)

            Hope you don't have any loved ones in any other room or live in an appartment, 'cuz you fire off a fuckin' alley-sweeper in a building with sheet-rock retaining walls, you're going to have .45 APC flying all over creation.  Thompsons are great, but they're incredibly fucking stupid to use against intruders.

            "Glenn Beck ends up looking like a fat, stupid child. His face should be wearing a chef's hat on the side of a box of eclairs. " - Doug Stanhope

            by Front Toward Enemy on Wed May 22, 2013 at 07:42:12 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  .45ACP beats shooting .357 mag or basically (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ER Doc

              any rifle cartridge inside the house. Especially with a quality jacket hollow point or frangible.

              Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

              by KVoimakas on Wed May 22, 2013 at 09:02:10 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  that's why a .357... (0+ / 0-)

                ...isn't a great home-defense weapon, either.  

                Go with a shotgun, or learn to hit what you fucking aim at and use a .38.   Blasting your house with .45's of any type would be the action of a massive idiot who's not smart enough to be "protecting" anybody.  You'd be a bigger danger to those around you than any intruder, blasting that Thompson in the house.  They're a wonderful, beautiful tool for what they were made for - tearing up Nazis.  But if that's your go-to weapon in a home, please, for the love of humanity, get a better education about your weapons.

                "Glenn Beck ends up looking like a fat, stupid child. His face should be wearing a chef's hat on the side of a box of eclairs. " - Doug Stanhope

                by Front Toward Enemy on Wed May 22, 2013 at 10:24:04 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  So, completely gloss over the frangible or (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  oldpunk, 43north

                  quality hollowpoint comment I made?

                  Dude (or dudette), you don't know my house construction or what I've done to it or my level of training. Being a certified firearm instructor AND having taken some LEO training courses makes me not your average firearm owner. Running through some training with the Thompson (and I mean running, literally) is fun. Low recoil, hard hitting round, doesn't penetrate exterior walls, isn't as loud as a rifle round.

                  Also, "blasting your house" sounds like I'm just firing indiscriminately. Yeah...no.

                  Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                  by KVoimakas on Wed May 22, 2013 at 10:44:43 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  hollowpoints will still go through interior walls (0+ / 0-)

                    You can change the makeup of the ammo, but it's still too much push for the purpose.   Hollowpoints will go through sheetrock, no problem.  You might as well lob some grenades around your house, too.  And if you're using frangibles, why even pick a Thompson?  If you're not going to be using a shotgun, why pick something that's still going to be a risk to you getting it through doorways?  If you're not blasting indiscriminately, then we're back to my original argument -- why would you need a 50-round mag in the first place?  Who're you expecting to come after you - the Wehrmacht?

                    I'm not debating that Thompsons are fun.  Like I said, they're great for what they were made for.  But if that's your choice for defense in your bedroom, man, I'm not going to you as a firearms instructor, 'cuz you give bad advice.

                    "Glenn Beck ends up looking like a fat, stupid child. His face should be wearing a chef's hat on the side of a box of eclairs. " - Doug Stanhope

                    by Front Toward Enemy on Wed May 22, 2013 at 11:12:06 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Answers: (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      43north, ER Doc, andalusi

                      230 grains at ~840fps doesn't penetrate my house walls. That's out of a 1911. Pushing the same round through a 16.5" barrel doesn't increase the velocity all that much (see Ballisics By the Inch).

                      I'm not going through doorways with a Thompson. See how I say "if I'm not moving from my room" in the comment below. If I'm going to actually sweep and clear my house, I'm going to be using my 1911. 10 round magazines. Tuck it in close to the chest and it's a lot easier to go around corners and use Zule (Zool? never figured out the spelling) to keep from sweeping people.

                      But if I'm sitting in one place, I'm not going to want to reload. Sure, 99% of all self defense shootings take less than a full magazine (and that's referencing a 1911 magazine capacity) but hey, I'd rather be prepared.

                      What advice did I give? I use a 1911 for carry; I don't personally recommend it to students since it requires more maintenance and has a bit more of a learning curve than a Glock or a S&W M&P or a SA XD. I'm not recommending people use a Thompson for self defense.

                      Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                      by KVoimakas on Wed May 22, 2013 at 11:47:21 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  Oh, and so there's no confusion: (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  43north, ER Doc
                  Primary carry: .45ACP 1911
                  Backup: .45ACP 1911
                  Competition: .45ACP 1911
                  Competition 2: .45ACP S&W625
                  Competition 3: .45ACP 1911
                  Home defense: Thompson .45ACP (if I'm not moving from my room)
                  My other choices, handgun wise, are a .44 Magnum or a .50AE. Both of which make .45ACP look like a .38SPL.

                  Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                  by KVoimakas on Wed May 22, 2013 at 11:00:07 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  NYPD paid a record amount in the '70s (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  ER Doc, KVoimakas

                  for standing-by their 200gr. .38 special, standard velocity Round Nose Lead bullet.

                  The fired projectile exited the robber who continued unabated, struck the sidewalk, and killed a child in a stroller being pushed by his mother, a city block away.

                  The .38 is not a low-penetration round, which is why the old Air Marshall program used the SuperVel® and then Glaser Safety Slug® projectiles to lessen the chance of bystander injury and airplane depressurization.

                  As to your comment regarding a shotgun, unless loaded with light charges of birdshot (#8 or #9) a shotgun can penetrate interior walls too.  Buckshot marketed as a "Self-Defense Load" particularly.

                  In close quarters, your ability to wield a 28 barreled over/under as championed by our Vice President, may fulfill those Lifetime Television® scripts where the gun is bashed from your hand and used against you.  It's a lever, employable from either end.

                  The "correct" shotgun for home use was banned by the National Firearms Act of 1934.

                  It was even available with a factory holster.

                  A friend in law enforcement claimed the one the County had as his personal raid gun:  "Everyone's reasonable when the Auto & Burglar comes out, 'til then the fight's on."

                  The County however, became uneasy with an NFA gun being used, and possibly called into-question should it be fired at a suspect.

                  (now they issue Mil-Spec M4 Carbines which are NFA guns - but this was Clinton-era - and guns were teh bad)
                  While he was on vacation, the County rendered the gun inoperable by welding the barrel to the frame and mounting it to the wall of a historical display.

                  The country was in peril; he was jeopardizing his traditional rights of freedom and independence by daring to exercise them.” ~ Joseph Heller, Catch-22

                  by 43north on Wed May 22, 2013 at 12:18:52 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Shotguns and wall penetration (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  KVoimakas, Front Toward Enemy

                  I'm with you on the shotgun as a home defense weapon, and also that if one plans on using a handgun, that accuracy is of paramount importance. (Not that practice getting accurate with the shotgun isn't, mind.)

                  But as far as penetration is concerned, #4 and #1 buckshot can go through several layers of sheetrock easily:
                  http://www.theboxotruth.com/...

                  00 pellets can go even deeper:
                  http://www.theboxotruth.com/...

                  Though that said, nonfrangible .45 ACP blasts through a lot more:
                  http://www.theboxotruth.com/...

                •  Bwaaaahahahahahaha! (0+ / 0-)

                  You fail on both ballistics AND history!  8>)

                  "get a better education", indeed....

                  Your hate-mail will be graded.

                  by PavePusher on Sun May 26, 2013 at 10:23:01 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  I use a twenty- or thirty-round magazine... (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          PavePusher, andalusi, KVoimakas

          ...in a civilian-AK when hunting wild hogs -- sounders can easily be larger than thirty animals, and the intent there is to lower the numbers overall, not harvest for food.  Personally, I lean towards the twenty-round, the thirty- is a bit bulky for regular carry.

          So, there is an example of a logical use for such a magazine, just as you asked for.

          Of course, I've never seen a compelling reason to limit any Civil Right based on need -- it is a right, whether one person considers it a need or not.  Where does it say that a lack of a need renders a Civil Right moot...?

          I mean, you don't need to be able to express your opinion, that's why you elect people, to do that for you.  You don't need to be able to engage in the religion of your choice, it's not necessary for survival.  Such a list could go on for quite some time.

          Oddly, though, you rarely see people making the need argument about those Civil Rights -- at least, not in Democratic, Liberal, or Progressive circles.

          One would almost think, then, that bringing need into such a discussion is both irrelevant and more than a little hypocritical.

          Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

          by theatre goon on Tue May 21, 2013 at 03:43:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  getting rid of hogs... (0+ / 0-)

            ...is more varmit control than actual "hunting."  But, granted, a bigger magazine might be useful for that.  But, you can also bring extra clips.

            Since you've got answers, what's your solution to lessening some of the civilian deaths we've been seeing because of these weapons?  I mean, I'm a gun owner, I like guns, but I do see some reasons for gun control.  If you want less, then it's gonna be part of your responsibility to come up with some fucking solutions, too.  I'm tired of just hearing about people's "rights" when kids are getting gunned down because complete assholes are getting these things along with the pig-hunters.  So, if you're against hypocrisy, how 'bout addressing some of that, too?   Maybe the solutions I've got aren't perfect, but I'm not hearing any better ones, so until I do, let's just have an impasse, shall we?

            "Glenn Beck ends up looking like a fat, stupid child. His face should be wearing a chef's hat on the side of a box of eclairs. " - Doug Stanhope

            by Front Toward Enemy on Wed May 22, 2013 at 07:47:52 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Meh. (0+ / 0-)

              Once you attribute to me a stance that I do not take:

              If you want less...
              ...I lose much interest in trying to converse with you.

              At no point did I ever say anything about wanting less regulation.  

              That being the case, if you wish to attribute arguments to me that I haven't made, then there's no point in me engaging with you.  It seems as though you'll be able to carry on both sides of the discussion on your own.

              Now, if you want to discuss what I really said -- oh, wait, you don't want to hear about rights.  Nevermind, then.

              Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

              by theatre goon on Wed May 22, 2013 at 12:29:41 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  so, basically... (0+ / 0-)

                ... you have no ideas about solving the problem, and all you want to talk about is "rights."

                Don't have much interest in conversing with you either, then.

                "Glenn Beck ends up looking like a fat, stupid child. His face should be wearing a chef's hat on the side of a box of eclairs. " - Doug Stanhope

                by Front Toward Enemy on Wed May 22, 2013 at 07:03:27 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Not at all. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  KVoimakas, Wordsinthewind

                  I have plenty of ideas, which I have been known to discuss at some length.

                  The problem is that, once you have attributed to me an argument that I have not made, then you have shown that you are not interested in meaningful discussion.

                  It is a dishonest tactic, and brings to an end any real debate.

                  Further, just because you don't want to consider rights, that does not make them suddenly no longer a part of the discussion -- it only means that you don't want to discuss an integral part of the actual discussion at hand.

                  Once again, this brings to an end any real debate.

                  It's not particularly difficult stuff, here.

                  Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

                  by theatre goon on Thu May 23, 2013 at 04:00:12 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  There are very few places where one... (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          andalusi, theatre goon, KVoimakas

          is allowed to hunt with 30-rd magazines, and that is usually limited to pest species.  I know of no controlled-hunting game animals that may be so hunted.

          Since you probably won't be around to provide security for me, you get exactly zero say in how I do so, as long as I do not endanger others.  Since criminals will not abide by magazine size- limits, there is no sense in limiting those who will not be committing crimes with guns.

          Lastly, your perception of what I "would logically have a use for" is irrelevant, as that is not how we determine Constitutional Rights, nor do you have some delegated power to make such determinations for others.

          Have a great night.

          Your hate-mail will be graded.

          by PavePusher on Tue May 21, 2013 at 09:29:37 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  if somebody can't hit what they aim at... (0+ / 0-)

            ...with one round, thirty more are going to be wasted in their hands, anyway.   If someone's relying that much on magazine capacity for their security, I'm not sure anybody'd even need a gun to get them.  A knife and a dark night might be all it takes.

            "Glenn Beck ends up looking like a fat, stupid child. His face should be wearing a chef's hat on the side of a box of eclairs. " - Doug Stanhope

            by Front Toward Enemy on Wed May 22, 2013 at 07:59:46 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

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