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View Diary: Have Dems sold out too early on immigration? Not if they want something to actually pass (317 comments)

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  •  Wrong vehicle (26+ / 0-)

    this bill won't pass with that LGBT language in it, period. So how does that help same-sex couples?

    Kill this bill, then eliminate DOMA, and same-sex couples are still equally screwed under the current immigration regime.

    Pass this bill, then eliminate DOMA, and then same-sex couples are covered.

    See?

    •  Are they covered everywhere? (8+ / 0-)

      What about same-sex couples in Florida, where gay marriage is banned?

      UAFA will NOT become law unless it is part of a comprehensive package. If it is not included in this bill, we are at the mercy of the courts. Same-sex binational couples have to wait. Again.

    •  Do you really think this will pass the House? I (11+ / 0-)

      don't and yet we send the message that we are willing to run straight to center....for absolutely no reason.  Both on same sex rights and definitely on the issue of workers here at home.

      My husband is union and they are livid this morning with the  cave on H1B for multiple reasons...even if some of those up the ladder are okay with it.  The workers are not happy about it.

      •  I know. It would be a shame to show that (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        askew

        we like to govern once in a while.

        "But the problem with any ideology is that it gives the answer before you look at the evidence." - President Clinton

        by anonevent on Wed May 22, 2013 at 01:55:23 PM PDT

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      •  Bingo (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Tweedledee5

        The least ythey  could have done is passed it in the Senate, then let the House strip the provision and accepted that in the committee.   Then it's very clear where the animus is.  Right now the animus is coming from Democrats.

        Minority rights should never be subject to majority vote.

        by lostboyjim on Wed May 22, 2013 at 05:38:10 PM PDT

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    •  And there is no future. Nothing ever happens (7+ / 0-)

      again.

      Really, Kos, it's just fucking genius to bail the Republicans out of their own jam and let them pass a "Bi-Partisan" bill they can take to immigrants in 2014 to show that they're not the nasty racist assholes the Democrats make them out to be.

      THAT will really weaken their electoral position.

      In 2010, there was a 9 point swing their way among hispanic voters.  You think 14 would be better?

      "The thing about smart motherfuckers is that they sound like crazy motherfuckers to dumb motherfuckers." Robert Kirkman

      by JesseCW on Wed May 22, 2013 at 01:04:08 PM PDT

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      •  I'm pretty certain Jesse (5+ / 0-)

        that pretty much any position you take anymore is exactly opposite to what we ought to do.  You pretty much are the anti-progress guy on here from what I can tell, never what should be done but always what shouldn't.  You want to lay out some details to how we move forward on immigration reform under the Jesse Plan?  

        •  Win back the house and get rid (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          CajunBoyLgb, stevemb, Dallasdoc

          of the filibuster.

          I'm sick of this bullshit "what is your plan."

          It's not rocket science.

          If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

          by AoT on Wed May 22, 2013 at 02:41:53 PM PDT

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          •  Oh win back the House (0+ / 0-)

            Let's talk about that one, specifically about tearing down the present leader of the Democratic Party and much of the leadership, calling them sellouts, while pretending that it's your goal to build a Democratic majority in the House.  Somehow to me those two actions don't seem to support one another.  

            You're sick of the bullshit "what is your plan" because like the guys on the right you have no plan.  Getting rid of the filibuster is a noble goal but there seem to have been Democratic Senators that were blocking that action (actually postponing it since the deal was struck to allow it to still be done mid term).  The votes weren't there out of fear that it would come back and bite them in future Republican majorities.  It's a moot point to remove the filibuster now with the House Republican majority anyway so really that's the only issue, retaking the House.  

            So we'll get more specific in my request.  How would you or Jesse go about taking back the House given the current political and media mess?  I'm truly curious what YOUR SPECIFIC PLAN would be that differs from what the Democrats are doing now.  Would you advocate standing firm on every negotiation, with the risk that calling the bluff might throw the country into a full blown depression?  Would you stop going after terrorists with drones knowing the political and media firestorm that would erupt if one of these guys that was targeted and stopped carried out a huge terrorist attack on the country?   Would you have the President and Congressional leaders scream and yell knowing that the media is not friendly and would take those sound bites and turn them all into video clips portraying them as the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse?  

            All I hear from the likes of Jesse and your ilk is a bunch of hot air and bluster.  Well he shoulda....It's like you're the Moe Howards of DKos.

            •  "Tearing down the present leader" (0+ / 0-)

              Yeah, if we just cheer louder we'll win back the house, promise.

              All I hear from the likes of Jesse and your ilk is a bunch of hot air and bluster.  Well he shoulda....It's like you're the Moe Howards of DKos.
              Yeah, I'm bluster. You're the one trying to up the fear with claims about terrorists. That was a lot of text to say nothing new. The fact of the matter is that we have no clue what's going on in the white house because this admin lied about transparency. So no, I can't have a plan, but trusting the same person who has lied over and over about incredibly important things sounds like a shitty plan to me.

              If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

              by AoT on Thu May 23, 2013 at 09:24:19 AM PDT

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      •  Social Security was improved many times, (0+ / 0-)

        including adding coverage of all blacks, for instance (initially most blacks were excluded, by design, as a gift to Dixiecrats).  And Social Security is just one example of a program that was severely flawed when initially passed, then improved on when revisited.  So your "Nothing ever happens again" statement is simply wrong.

    •  Naive you are (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      CajunBoyLgb, AoT, stevemb

      No immigration bill is not going to pass the House and I doubt even the Senate, much like gun control and single payer (remember those?). So why not demand what you want. At the end of the day you have at least stood up for your base and the result is the same.

    •  Understand - but don't expect LGBT support on this (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      CajunBoyLgb, Dallasdoc

      I understand your logic, but hopefully you can still see my logic.

      Because Pres Obama and Senate Democrats told the LGBT Democrats that they are second class citizens, LGBT voters cannot be expected to lift a finger to help get this bad bill (bad for LGBT people) passed - not send emails, make calls, write letters to Congress or letters to the editor, help OFA, when telephone pollster calls, say "Yes, I support that bill" - not do any of those things.  

      At best, Obama may hope that the LGBT voters will just shut up, stand aside and not do anything to help kill the bill.

      I suspect most LGBT voters and their supporters will do that.

      I suspect others will take action and work to kill the bill.

      It is a logical and expected reaction, and will not come as a surprise to Pres Obama and Congressional Democrats.

    •  Oh please. (0+ / 0-)

      For someone who claims to be a political realist, this is a piss poor argument:

      Pass this bill, then eliminate DOMA, and then same-sex couples are covered.
      You know perfectly well that DOMA repeal isn't going to pass on its own.  The only way we might be able to get rid of it would be to attach it to a must-pass bill like this one.  Yet we can't even get the narrow issue of immigration equality for gay people in an immigration bill.

      So what you're offering as a strategy is no strategy at all.  It's just telling gay people to wait -- again.

      "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

      by FogCityJohn on Wed May 22, 2013 at 10:07:57 PM PDT

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