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View Diary: How To Shut Down a City Without Going to Jail (109 comments)

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  •  Puddytat - most of the OWS groups (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sviscusi, vcmvo2, erush1345

    were violating time, place, and manner local laws.

    The group in New York found a very interesting public/private park which put them in a gray area and bought them some time. A few OWS actually obtained permits and complied with local laws. The overwhelming majority of OWS groups never complied with local laws.  

    "let's talk about that"

    by VClib on Wed May 22, 2013 at 06:10:42 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  It would be wise (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ray Pensador, Puddytat

      to link to some real proof of what some around here might be tempted to refer to as extraordinary claims:

      The overwhelming majority of OWS groups never complied with local laws.  

      Otherwise it might be helpful to include the qualifier "In my opinion,..." ;)

      "The “Left” is NOT divided on the need to oppose austerity and the Great Betrayal. The Third Way is not left or center or even right. It is Wall Street on the Potomac."--Bill Black

      by lunachickie on Wed May 22, 2013 at 07:07:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  lunachickie - I don't have any links (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        erush1345

        but I followed the OWS movement very closely and only a handful actually went through the process of obtaining local permits.

        "let's talk about that"

        by VClib on Wed May 22, 2013 at 07:25:47 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  So did I (0+ / 0-)

          and I'm calling bullshit on your claim.

          "The “Left” is NOT divided on the need to oppose austerity and the Great Betrayal. The Third Way is not left or center or even right. It is Wall Street on the Potomac."--Bill Black

          by lunachickie on Thu May 23, 2013 at 09:37:39 AM PDT

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          •  OK, if you have a list of those OWS groups (0+ / 0-)

            who did obtain local permits I am always willing to be persuaded by facts. I would be happy to change my view if it's wrong.

            "let's talk about that"

            by VClib on Thu May 23, 2013 at 09:41:43 AM PDT

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            •  I'm not the one who made the initial claim (0+ / 0-)

              VCLib, we've been through this before. It is up to you to support your extraordinary claim at the beginning of the thread that you started:

              A few OWS actually obtained permits and complied with local laws. The overwhelming majority of OWS groups never complied with local laws.  
              Every time I've ever asked you to back up one of your outlandish claims, you "don't have any links but you read about it somewhere". This is the third time in recent memory.

              Perhaps you should stop making such claims with language that implies the information is authoritative. It's not authoritative if you can never back it up--it's merely your opinion.

              Let's talk about that!

              "The “Left” is NOT divided on the need to oppose austerity and the Great Betrayal. The Third Way is not left or center or even right. It is Wall Street on the Potomac."--Bill Black

              by lunachickie on Thu May 23, 2013 at 10:02:57 AM PDT

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    •  I can only speak for Occupy Los Angeles, but (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ray Pensador, Puddytat, lunachickie

      OLA Occupiers were encouraged by some members of the Los Angeles City Council (including, IIRC, the new mayor-elect) to "stay as long as you like."

      Once the 1% and its lackies and lickspittles in the mainstream media succeeded in turning OLA into the object of mockery and disdain, the City Council allowed Villaraigosa, Trutanich, et. al. to send in the goons (1500+ vs. some 300 unarmed OLA occupiers).

      There's some silver lining in the cloud, however. First, Trutanich was defeated decisively in his bid for re-election as City Attorney (after being thrashed earlier in his attempt to get elected LA County District Attorney). Couldn't happen to a nicer thug. Karma is a bitch, Nuch.

      As for Villaraigosa, he's been term-limited out of the mayoralty (thank God). Rumor has it he'll be seeking higher office, but he should take a look at Trutanich's fate last night and ask himself if he really wants to risk the ire of OLA Occupiers, myself included. I've made it sort of a personal mission to do my utmost to make sure he's not elected to anything other than dogcatcher for the rest of his life and I'm sure there are many other OLA Occupiers who feel the same way.

      •  Charles - stay as long as you like (0+ / 0-)

        unless it is accompanied by an actual permit, does not make the occupation lawful. I have no issues with people unlawfully occupying public space as an action of civil disobedience. However, when you do that the police have the right to ask you to leave, and if you don't, to arrest you.

        "let's talk about that"

        by VClib on Wed May 22, 2013 at 11:25:44 PM PDT

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        •  That's a distinction without a difference, as it (0+ / 0-)

          was a City Councilperson who publicly told Occupy Los Angeles to 'stay as long as you like'. Was that City Councilperson inciting lawlessness? Say it ain't so.

          •  A member of the City Council does not have the (0+ / 0-)

            authority to give you permission to camp on public property.  Any single member is only one of 15 on the council. What that member of the City Council should have done is have the entire council pass a resolution allowing you to stay. Or walk your permit through the city administrative offices and have it issued. Even if the mayor had suggested you stay it would still need to be approved by the City Council or the office that permits this type of activity.

            "let's talk about that"

            by VClib on Thu May 23, 2013 at 10:03:52 PM PDT

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            •  That's funny, because many OLA Occupiers had the (0+ / 0-)

              distinct impression that they had indeed received the city's permission and even blessing.

              Which makes Villaraigosa's betrayal all the more revealing as to whose interests he really serves. Hint: it ain't the 99% or the base of the Democratic Party.

    •  OWS Milwaukee never ever had a permit (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AoT, lunachickie

      but we/they were in an out of the way place and didn't piss off the high and mighty.  If we had any visibility, it would have met the same fate and many of the others.  If you stayed out of the way, away from the banking centers and downtown, you got left alone.  

      Those who were in high traffic, very public places were the only ones required to have "permits".  In other words, the permit was used as an excuse to send SWAT teams with militaristic weaponry into a group of unarmed people, destroy their tents and belongings, and push them back into the background when the 1% started feeling the heat.

      There was very uneven application of "laws" and permits.

      There already is class warfare in America. Unfortunately, the rich are winning.

      by Puddytat on Wed May 22, 2013 at 11:43:03 PM PDT

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      •  Because of the arbitrary nature of (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Puddytat, AoT

        the application of such "laws" or "permits", then the contention further upthread that "they violated the law" is an arbitrary opinion, not a stone-cold fact.

        Thanks for fleshing out the "permit" discussion :)

        "The “Left” is NOT divided on the need to oppose austerity and the Great Betrayal. The Third Way is not left or center or even right. It is Wall Street on the Potomac."--Bill Black

        by lunachickie on Thu May 23, 2013 at 10:06:41 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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