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View Diary: Pope Francis: Atheists Who Do Good Are Saved (522 comments)

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  •  Well, I can only speak for one atheist.... (7+ / 0-)
    but it could well affect the decisions of MILLIONS around you.
    ...but anyone whose "decisions" are affected by this, I probably wouldn't want to associate with before or after this proclamation. Think about it -- if a Catholic, up until now, was inclined to hate/discriminate against/feel disgust for me as an atheist who does good (for the most part), but is now OK with me after his religious leader tells him "Naw, the athiests are fine if they do good," why would I give a shit about this low-life? I went from someone to be pitied/hated to accepted without any change on my part.  I reject that nonsense. longer in SF.... -9.00, -7.38

    by TFinSF on Wed May 22, 2013 at 04:41:45 PM PDT

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    •  Basically: I'm not sure I trust ... (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TFinSF, MPociask, wader, tytalus, caul

      if not "him" personally, than the rest of his papacy and the hierarchy supporting it.

      So yes ... it sounds nice and ecumenical and all-inclusive.  More so than any other Pope's nice,ecumenical and all-inclusive "outreach".

      This Pope is saying more of the right things more of the time than President Obama during his first 100 days.  And look how well that seamless garment has worn over the years.

      Now ... if His Holiness  were to suspend the "personal prelature" that is the Opus Die  ... THEN I'd be convinced "this one is different."

    •  excellent point; if it takes a proclamation (7+ / 0-)

      to change the POV of sheeple, then another proclamation will have them merrily marching off to war in God's name against the godless

      •  Maybe not. Once you expand someone's "ethical .. (4+ / 0-)
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        Cassandra Waites, Debby, Munchkn, mrkvica

        ... horizon," it isn't easy to shrink it back down again.  Giving out passes to a hypothetical heaven, it's hard to take them back.

        I remember a panel discussion of four clergymen, on TV years ago.  One of the liberal ones said, "I'm glad there's room for you in my heaven."  I really think that attitude is contagious.

        We're all pretty strange one way or another; some of us just hide it better. "Normal" is a dryer setting.

        by david78209 on Wed May 22, 2013 at 06:47:36 PM PDT

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    •  Yeah, exactly. (6+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TFinSF, wader, Laconic Lib, corvo, Kevskos, caul

      So Francy-kins has ordered the sheeple he commands to be nice to us atheists, because we are now going to be eligible to enter his make-believe-after-life land that doesn't exist?

      I mean, I guess it's a nice change of pace from them violating children or sending another message of hate to gay people.

      But at the end of the day it doesn't really matter for those of us who live soley in reality.

    •  Over a billion people are Catholic. It matters. (10+ / 0-)

      Just because you personally might not choose to associate with some of them doesn't make it matter any less. They vote, they run businesses, they hold government offices, and they interact with non-Catholics -- including atheists -- every day.

      It is a very big deal if the pope tells Catholics to accept atheists as potentially going to heaven alongside Christians. That could change the way many Catholics treat atheists, and could generally reduce the level of hatred in the world and increase people's respect for others who don't hold the same religious beliefs as their own.

      The most serious problem in American politics today is that people with wrong ideas are uncompromising, and people with good ideas are submissive and unwilling to fight. Change that, and we might have a real democracy again.

      by Eric Stetson on Wed May 22, 2013 at 06:49:11 PM PDT

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    •  I give a shit (11+ / 0-)

      because we're talking about my mother.

      Now, maybe my Catholic mother can stop pretending that her oldest son isn't atheist and her two oldest granddaughters aren't pagan--because, believe me, this is exactly why she was pretending. This is also why, every time it is mentioned that her other son--who is now deceased--wasn't quite an atheist but certainly wasn't a Catholic or Christian, she shudders and changes the subject.

      I can't pretend to be what I'm not, but being able to tell my Mom, "Hey, the Pope said that if (brother) and I were wrong, we still might go to heaven," will give her piece of mind.

      Of course, Francis was also a big-time gay-marriage opponent in Argentina, so my gay pagan daughter probably wouldn't qualify, but we won't tell Mom that :)

      First, tell me how your brilliant idea will pass the House. Second, tell me how Obama can get anything past the House. Then we can talk.

      by ChurchofBruce on Wed May 22, 2013 at 07:20:30 PM PDT

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      •  I was also raised Catholic (0+ / 0-)

        so I can relate. I still maintain that if the acceptance of one's relatives hinges on the word of their cult leader, it's not worth much. The one universal feature of the gods that people make up is that they change their minds quite a lot. longer in SF.... -9.00, -7.38

        by TFinSF on Thu May 23, 2013 at 03:52:29 AM PDT

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        •  No, you don't quite get my point. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          It's not acceptance. It has nothing to do with acceptance.

          Let me put a finer point on it for you: my 70-year-old mother is scared shitless that her dead son, who died at 39 of cancer, is in hell right now. The. Literal. Hell. Dante, and all that. Because she's a believer, and my brother wasn't.

          She loved my brother. She loves all of us. But she's scared, and I mean SCARED, that we're all going to hell and her afterlife--which gets closer every year when you're 70--is going to be barren of her family.

          I know it's bullshit. That doesn't matter.

          First, tell me how your brilliant idea will pass the House. Second, tell me how Obama can get anything past the House. Then we can talk.

          by ChurchofBruce on Thu May 23, 2013 at 09:01:47 AM PDT

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          •  No, I got your point. (0+ / 0-)

            But what I have been saying all along is that I don't care if gullible, superstitious people change their positions because sky-daddy's spokesman told them to. Even if that gives them piece of mind. If they thought for themselves rather than outsourcing it to sky-daddy's spokesman, they wouldn't have gotten themselves in this made-up conundrum in the first place.

   longer in SF.... -9.00, -7.38

            by TFinSF on Thu May 23, 2013 at 10:48:59 AM PDT

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    •  I don't "associate" with a lot of people whose (0+ / 0-)

      decisions nonetheless affect me.

      There are two kinds of people in this world: Those who fit into one of two mutually exclusive categories, and those who don't.

      by zhimbo on Thu May 23, 2013 at 10:10:00 AM PDT

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