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    Turkish genocide of the Armenians.

    Constantinople happened in 1453. It was simply a conquest - like that of Granada in 1492 - and has nothing whatsoever to do with the ideologies of todays modernized people.

    you cant be serious in linking such things up with modernity? That is as ahistoric as it ever gets. Quite like Serbs claiming Kosovo is forever theirs because of Amselfeld.

    •  Why do you think Osama bin Ladin (1+ / 0-)
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      picked September 11th? Because Sept. 11, 1683 was the point at which Islamic expansion into Europe was turned back, so this was the opening salvo in further expansion -- as the jihadists saw it. The jihadists are thinking in terms of centuries, not decades. They see it as one long fight, and who are we to say it isn't?

      The jihadists aren't modernized. That's the point. They're following a very different ideology than are modernized Muslims or Westerners.

      Please visit:

      by Noisy Democrat on Wed May 22, 2013 at 09:07:45 PM PDT

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    •  p.s. When they call us "Crusaders" (2+ / 0-)
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      Be Skeptical, Kickemout

      that should tell you right there that they are not thinking about this in modern terms.

      Please visit:

      by Noisy Democrat on Wed May 22, 2013 at 09:13:29 PM PDT

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      •  Thats thoroughly modern thinking. (3+ / 0-)

        Do you think that the Nazis were medieval, just because they called their Flemish auxiliaries the Last Knights of Flanders? Have you ever heard of romanticism and idealizations? Both are very modern inventions. Just that the current islamists use such imagery shows that they are in the forefront of the modernization of the arab world. (and yes its the arab world specifically).

        They are a current political movement, to be fought for sure (not least by their own compatriots), but to equate them with islam or with anyone from times half a thousand years ago would be like equating Germans with Nazis (heh).

        IIRC (but I am not entirely sure of this) the islamists go back to the 1860s and came into being as an anticolonialist reform movement that would not make any sense to anyone without the european imperialist expansion (compressing the islamic world into a single entity like it had never been the case since late middle ages). And now they are freeboarders of  globalization, of all things. They have much more in common with Occupy Wall Street than with some medieval Caliph.

        •  Can you recommend any books or articles (0+ / 0-)

          that lay out that view in more detail?

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          by Noisy Democrat on Thu May 23, 2013 at 05:03:59 AM PDT

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        •  p.s. just to doublecheck (0+ / 0-)

          You do know that they want to impose strict Sharia law on everyone, with the death penalty for gays, amputation for theft, stoning of rape victims, etc., right? Pretty far from Occupy Wall Street. If you think OWS is pushing the same economic model as the Islamic theocrats, I'd be curious to hear in what sense that's true. Otherwise, the only similarity I see is that both are against unbridled capitalism and usury.

          Please visit:

          by Noisy Democrat on Wed May 29, 2013 at 06:30:58 AM PDT

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