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View Diary: Open thread for night owls: Summoning the godfather of investibators (134 comments)

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  •  Absurd ideas with Starr aside, (0+ / 0-)

    Noonan was spot on with this:

     “This is not about the usual partisan slugfest. This is about the integrity of our system of government and our ability to trust, which is to say our ability to function.”

    Although I don't think an IC is necessary. A full instigation is.

    But there is some crazy like a fox genius is Starr. If HE found nothing there would nothing left for the RW to even pretend to point at.

    •  You seem to be under the impression (18+ / 0-)

      Republicans might eventually be satisfied, if only someone with the right amount of "credibility" finally determines there's really "nothing to see here."

      I beg to differ.

      They'll just keep looking for somebody who WILL find something that validates their suspicions.




      Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
      ~ Jerry Garcia

      by DeadHead on Wed May 22, 2013 at 08:52:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  An IC for what? (11+ / 0-)

      The only so-called "crime" here is the fact that some Teabagger POLITICAL groups, who were posing as Social Welfare groups to get tax free status, had their applications approved when they should have been denied.

      ------"Load up on guns, bring your friends. It's fun to lose and to pretend."------- Kurt Cobain

      by Jeff Y on Wed May 22, 2013 at 08:52:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You are way off base (0+ / 0-)

        They were ID'd because of political terms applied to them.Then they were found to be OK. But only after delays and extra scrutiny. It would be wrong for us. it is wrong for them.

        •  You're way off base (9+ / 0-)

          Political groups on both sides of the aisle were targeted, and the only group that had their application denied was a liberal group.

          http://www.bloomberg.com/...

          ------"Load up on guns, bring your friends. It's fun to lose and to pretend."------- Kurt Cobain

          by Jeff Y on Wed May 22, 2013 at 10:02:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Nope, you are still way off base (0+ / 0-)

            Those three were not "targeted" because of their liberal sounding words. The conservative groups were specifically targeted due to the words used to search for them. And since the 3 groups you refer were not approved, they have no beef. The conservative groups are all approved- but only after being subjected to delays and extra hassles.

            Get your facts straight. Read the IG report.

            •  I'd bet you that if I put the phrase (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Eric Nelson, Jeff Y, DeadHead, DRo

              "I hate the IRS and the Government of the US and protest their right to levy any form of taxation upon me" at the top of each page of my tax forms, I'd get some extra scrutiny from the IRS as well.

              "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." - John F. Kennedy -7.8., -6.6

              by helpImdrowning on Wed May 22, 2013 at 10:16:50 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  How do you know those three liberal groups (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              helpImdrowning, Ender, DeadHead, JeffW

              weren't targeted? And how do you know they don't have a beef now?

              Puleeease, you're just making up shit now.

              And again, I repeat, ALL of the conservative groups were approved. Every single stinking one of them.

              ------"Load up on guns, bring your friends. It's fun to lose and to pretend."------- Kurt Cobain

              by Jeff Y on Wed May 22, 2013 at 10:31:42 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Read the report (0+ / 0-)

                Then get back to me. You are the one making stuff up.

                No liberal terms were used to ID groups. Conservative terms were used. I am not appalled that conservative groups were targeted I am appalled that ANY political bias was used by the IRS.

                Yes they were all approved, meaning there was no reason to delay them in the first place.

                •  I already provided you with proof (0+ / 0-)

                  of liberal groups being targeted.

                  You're running around in circles now.

                  ------"Load up on guns, bring your friends. It's fun to lose and to pretend."------- Kurt Cobain

                  by Jeff Y on Thu May 23, 2013 at 10:39:53 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  No you didn't (0+ / 0-)

                    "a" liberal group was examined and asked to clarify. They were not one of hundreds purposefully targeted with biased search terms that resulted in delays for years. You aren't running in circles but you are definitely spinning.

                    •  Try reading the whole article (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      JeffW

                      That liberal group wasn't asked to "clarify", they were denied their application.

                      I'm done wasting time on you, Slick. Your right wing, crackpot conspiracy theorist pals are over at Redstate, not here.

                      ------"Load up on guns, bring your friends. It's fun to lose and to pretend."------- Kurt Cobain

                      by Jeff Y on Thu May 23, 2013 at 03:17:49 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I am sorry that facts (0+ / 1-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Hidden by:
                        Jeff Y

                        make your world uncomfortable. Read the report. No liberal groups were "targeted". They had to clarify their applications and were denied. Unlike the opposite that happened with conservative groups which were targeted and got approved. My point is and has been that political bias against any group via the IRS is unacceptable, and so many here either do not know the facts of the case or more appalling, do not care.

                        Not sure which one you fall in to, but I guess name calling is all you have left.

                        •  The entire story is about liberal groups being (0+ / 0-)

                          targeted, you fucking moron. Hell, even Daily Kos was audited last year.

                          I'm done here. I'm tired of kicking your ass.

                          Like I said before, RedState is over there, Biff. Get lost. ------------------------------------------------------------>>>>

                          ------"Load up on guns, bring your friends. It's fun to lose and to pretend."------- Kurt Cobain

                          by Jeff Y on Thu May 23, 2013 at 08:37:06 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  please, (0+ / 1-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Hidden by:
                            Jeff Y

                            Give a single iota of any evidence that liberal groups were "targeted". A single group found their application lacking and was not approved. That is not being "targeted".

                            Hundreds of applications were systematically "targeted" because of the conservative sounding words in their names.

                            IF I cures I;d call you that expletive moron as well.

                            you have not kicked anything but your own denial.

                            BYW, do you eat with that mouth?

                            If you have ANY evidence to the contrary please present that to me. The article does not.

                          •  iota this, right wing assclown (0+ / 0-)
                            In a statement late yesterday, the tax agency said it had pooled together the politically active nonpartisan applicants -- including a “minority” that were identified because of their names. “It is also important to understand that the group of centralized cases included organizations of all political views,” the IRS said in its statement.

                            http://www.bloomberg.com/...

                            ------"Load up on guns, bring your friends. It's fun to lose and to pretend."------- Kurt Cobain

                            by Jeff Y on Thu May 23, 2013 at 08:59:49 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  OK you got me (0+ / 0-)

                            3 liberal groups were looked at. Wow, 3, not 300 conservative groups. Three. it's all equal now.

                            under pressure after admitting it targeted anti-tax Tea Party groups for scrutiny in recent years, also had its eye on at least three Democratic-leaning organizations seeking nonprofit status.

                            Assclown indeed. Sleep well.

                          •  When the name of your so-called (0+ / 0-)

                            'social welfare organization' stands for 'Taxed Enough Already', you deserve to be targeted. That's what the IRS is supposed to do,

                            ------"Load up on guns, bring your friends. It's fun to lose and to pretend."------- Kurt Cobain

                            by Jeff Y on Thu May 23, 2013 at 10:08:13 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Really dude? (0+ / 0-)

                            That is not what "they the IRS is supposed to do". You are Ok when the IRS decides that they can arbitrarily target groups because of their political affiliation? Wow. Nixon would be proud.

                            And again, the fallacy is that these groups did nothing to warrant the delay. Conservative (or liberal) sounding names aren't supposed to bring the wrath of the IRS upon you.

                            The IRS is not supposed to target anyone based on their opinions, which is what they did. They are supposed to enforce the tax code fairly and objectively. That's why heads are rolling now.

                          •  Yes, really, dude (0+ / 0-)

                            This whole "scandal" is complete crap.

                            The IRS was reviewing political organizations funded by big money donors (Koch bros, et al.) who were attempting to illegally not disclose their donors. The IRS was inundated with these applications, and used common sense to flag applications that were obviously shell political organizations posing as "social welfare organizations".

                            These Teabagger idiots got caught trying to game the tax system and are now complaining that they got caught using targeted methods.

                            Perhaps if they didn't try to subvert the system first and basically commit tax fraud none of this would have happened.  

                            ------"Load up on guns, bring your friends. It's fun to lose and to pretend."------- Kurt Cobain

                            by Jeff Y on Fri May 24, 2013 at 01:52:28 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You are absolutely wrong (0+ / 1-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Hidden by:
                            Jeff Y

                            1- You say "The IRS was reviewing political organizations funded by big money donors". You have any proof of that?  That is NOT how the use of conservative terms came to be used. In fact we have no idea WHO'S idea it was. In fact most of these orgs were budgets in single thousands. Small potatoes.

                            2- "he IRS was inundated with these applications, and used common sense to flag applications" No. As I have repeatedly pointed out. The use of these politically biased terms was implemented BEFROE the rise in applications began.

                            3- "were obviously shell political organizations posing as "social welfare organizations"." No again, as they all got approved, even after the unnecessary extra scrutiny.

                            4- "These Teabagger idiots got caught trying to game the tax system" Got caught how? When? Where?

                            Man I'm glad the URS admits their problem, I can't see why you won't.

                          •  All of these Tea Party groups that sprouted up (0+ / 0-)

                            seeking 501(c)(4) status were frauds. They weren't doing anything illegal, although it should be illegal.

                            The 501(c)(4) designation is for groups that can be fairly described as “social welfare organizations” or “local associations of employees.” Your average Tea Party group is neither of those things.

                            When you start describing anti-tax fanaticism as 'social welfare', you've allowed everything to be social welfare. "We're a social welfare group that tries to deny people access to health care!"

                            The other thing about 501(c)(4) groups is that they have to be for-profit and they can't have a primarily political purpose. Does that sound like a Tea Party group to you?

                            Maybe if the Republicans funded the IRS at an adequate level and didn't deluge them with bogus tax-avoidence schemes, the agency wouldn't feel compelled to take short cuts.

                            Now please do us all a favor and go fuck yourself, you right wing hack.

                            This case is closed.

                            You lost.

                            Go back to Planet Wingnuttia, troll boy.

                            ------"Load up on guns, bring your friends. It's fun to lose and to pretend."------- Kurt Cobain

                            by Jeff Y on Fri May 24, 2013 at 08:45:41 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  HA HA HA (0+ / 1-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Hidden by:
                            Jeff Y

                            You are so amazingly lame. Reconcile:

                            All of these Tea Party groups that sprouted up (0+ / 0-)
                            seeking 501(c)(4) status were frauds
                            .

                            with:

                            They weren't doing anything illegal,
                            Holy cow, that is amazing... I am tying to figure that out.

                            "Republicans' don't fund the IRS

                            The targeting of conservative names began before any increase in applications.

                            In other words, while there was an increase in 2010, it was relatively small. The real jump did not come until 2011, long after the targeting of conservative groups had been implemented. Also, it appears Lerner significantly understated the number of applications in 2010 (“1500”) in order to make her claim of “more than doubled.”
                            You would think that someone so adamant in their olin would have a fact or two to back that up. nit the case.

                            And by the way, do you eat with that mouth? And I am sure your mother taught you better manners than to resort to vulgarity when you lose an argument.

                            If you ever, and I mean ever,  care to present a single solitary fact in this debate please let me know. Otherwise read and wise up.

                          •  They also weren't denied their applications (0+ / 0-)

                            Now get lost troll.

                            ------"Load up on guns, bring your friends. It's fun to lose and to pretend."------- Kurt Cobain

                            by Jeff Y on Fri May 24, 2013 at 10:39:23 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And by the way, assclown (0+ / 0-)

                            If you think I'm going to accept without question the word of the idiot who calls himself a 'fact-checker' (Kessler) at WaPo (the same idiot who just claimed that Jonathan Karl did nothing wrong re WH e-mails), you're more delusional than I thought you were.

                            See ya!

                            ------"Load up on guns, bring your friends. It's fun to lose and to pretend."------- Kurt Cobain

                            by Jeff Y on Fri May 24, 2013 at 10:48:53 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Right (0+ / 0-)

                            just take your word for it. Your inability to accept reality os bizarre.

                            How about this then assclown?

                            And that they weren't denied their apps is MY point. They were targeted for no rational reason. Can you read and think? Or did mommy make you get off the computer before you finish sounding out the big words?

                          •  Why should we be surprised (0+ / 0-)

                            that the IRS takes special attention to the tax forms of you Teabagger morons? Judging from the terrible spelling on your protest signs, attention to detail isn’t really your thing.

                            ------"Load up on guns, bring your friends. It's fun to lose and to pretend."------- Kurt Cobain

                            by Jeff Y on Sat May 25, 2013 at 01:19:30 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  can you please read (0+ / 0-)

                            or get your mommy to read to you? This has all been explained. They were singled out excuse of politics, which is not OK> for anyone.

                            I'll ask you Why WOULD the IRS have any reason to single them out?

                            And don't call me names just because you can't read or think.

                      •  What "conspiracy"? n/t (0+ / 1-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Hidden by:
                        Jeff Y
            •  To steal another analogy from (4+ / 0-)

              another user here (forgot who it was):

              Let's say I have a couple of bumper stickers on my car like:

              I FUCKING HATE COPS
              LOVIN' THIS FAT DOOB I'M SMOKIN'

              I should probably expect some flashing red and blue lights behind me at some point, no?




              Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
              ~ Jerry Garcia

              by DeadHead on Wed May 22, 2013 at 10:56:36 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  The delay was ineffectual in that they (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          DeadHead, Don Quixote, JeffW

          could behave as if they had been approved until they weren't, if they were to be denied.
          What the Cons don't get is that probity is the norm. That is, there is a presumption that people are entitled to the permits they request until it is found that they aren't. Approval is the default. In the Cons' mind, the default is denial. That is, they assume something is denied until it is approved. They've got the sequence reversed. It happens in regard to criminal fault, as well. The Cons do not understand the presumption of innocence, either. At best, they consider it a hypothetical starting point for a trial. Putting the cart before the horse seems to relate to a common way of thinking on the part of some people and is an error that is well recognized in common parlance, but often ignored by otherwise smart people. That order or sequence are not necessarily perceived by some people seems difficult to comprehend by people who see it. It may have something to do with a sense of time as a linear process.

          We organize governments to deliver services and prevent abuse.

          by hannah on Thu May 23, 2013 at 03:34:05 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Wait.....What? (13+ / 0-)
      Noonan was spot on with this: “This is not about the usual partisan slugfest. This is about the integrity of our system of government and our ability to trust, which is to say our ability to function.”
      Srsly? Noonan has never been spot on about anything.

      "The scientific nature of the ordinary man is to go on out and do the best you can." John Prine

      by high uintas on Wed May 22, 2013 at 09:01:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Mister T is the proud owner of NR status. (6+ / 0-)

        I don't think the T stands for terrific. ifyaknowhadimean.

        "Go well through life"-Me (As far as I know)

        by MTmofo on Wed May 22, 2013 at 09:22:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  You think it is OK for (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jec

        the IRS to target groups because of politics?

        •  Yawn (9+ / 0-)

          Benghazi sputtered out, so Republicans are moving all their chips over to the IRS thing.

          Yes, I think the Tea Party trying to pass themselves off as a social welfare organisation to get out of paying the taxes normally collected from the type of political group they REALLY are can be given a questionaire.




          Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
          ~ Jerry Garcia

          by DeadHead on Wed May 22, 2013 at 09:41:18 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Can you reply to my question? (0+ / 0-)

            The IRS has already admitted it was wrong to ONLY target the conservative groups.

            Plus if they WERE not on the up and up they would not have had their papas approved (albeit after a 2 year delay and extra hassles on their part).

            So, why would you defend the biased and unnecessary practice that the IRS itself and the President says was inappropriate?

            •  Here's a better question: (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Ender, Sue B, JeffW, high uintas

              Why the fuck are you fighting this battle here?

              I don't give a fuck what the president said. I told you how I feel about it.

              If the president had NOT taken the action he did, you would have found fault with THAT, right?

              So what do you want from Daily Kos?

              If you're looking for some kind of mass Mea Culpa, you're gonna be waiting a long time.




              Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
              ~ Jerry Garcia

              by DeadHead on Wed May 22, 2013 at 10:40:12 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I am appalled (0+ / 0-)

                that people would defend these actions of the IRS and call themselves progressive. But at least you say it is a "feeling" and no logic. I hope "feel" good if it ever happens to our side.

                •  You are talking about big money (0+ / 0-)

                  political groups complaining about a fucking questionaire for fucks sake. Groups that HATE TO PAY TAXES are rightly looked at a little closer for the possibility THAT THEY ARE ACTING ON THEIR HATRED FOR PAYING TAXES.

                  Are you worried about the IRS targeting you because you have a 'T' in your username? Is that it?




                  Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
                  ~ Jerry Garcia

                  by DeadHead on Thu May 23, 2013 at 03:20:50 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Answer a question or two (0+ / 0-)

                    Have you read the report? Actually it is self evident you haven't. The groups were delayed for almost three years in getting their status conformed. And spent extra time money and resources on MUCH more than simple questionnaires.

                    Do think it is OK for the IRS to target ONLY one end of the political/opinion/ideological groups and not others  - without any indication they are fraudulent?

                    What makes you think the IRS should just determine that the name Patriot means "hates paying taxes"?

                    Will you be OK when it happens to liberal groups instead of conservative ones?

                  •  PS (0+ / 0-)

                    These were not Big money groups. If you look at them they were nearly all small time operations. Here is just a sample.

                    The Colorado groups affected are universally small and self-defined as grassroots. Their budgets are mostly in the single thousands of dollars a year and mostly derived from dues-paying members. They said in interviews with The Denver Post that they hold picnics and forums and try to recruit neighbors to hear about conservative ideas and philosophy.
                    You may want to get some facts rather than knee jerk to conclusions that confirm your opinions.
                    •  Whatever (0+ / 0-)
                      Since 2009, the Tea Party Patriots, a large national umbrella group, has claimed no fewer than 3,500 affiliates. Many applied for nonprofit status with the IRS, a prime reason the agency was so overwhelmed with applications. The people leading these groups were often neophytes politically and organizationally—or, as Dan Backer, a lawyer for TheTeaParty.net, explained in an interview with Mother Jones this week, "they didn't understand the complexity of what's involved."

                      Other tea partiers were part of a constellation of right-wing groups that seek to make money with fundraising appeals for conservative causes. And finally, some high-profile tea party leaders wrestled with personal tax problems before trying to start new political organizations.

                      Whether the IRS focused on any specific groups for any of these reasons is not clear. But here are some examples of these groups and why the IRS might have wanted to take a closer look at them:

                      True The Vote/King Street Patriots: True the Vote was among the active conservative groups that sought to police the polls during the 2010 and 2012 elections to root out alleged voter fraud. The group was created by the King Street Patriots, a Houston-based tea party organization and a 501(c)(4). But True the Vote is a 501(c)(3), a tax-exempt designation that allows a group's donors to write off their contributions but also has strict rules prohibiting electioneering and partisan political activity. True the Vote and King Street share board members and often co-sponsored events. [...]

                      link




                      Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
                      ~ Jerry Garcia

                      by DeadHead on Thu May 23, 2013 at 10:50:31 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

        •  They won't when the shoe is on the other foot. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          high uintas
        •  Do you think it's OK to target special prosecution (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          helpImdrowning, high uintas

          because of politics.

          You don't seriously think this is about the po' little Tea Party getting their rights trampled?

        •  The IRS is correct to put scrutiny on (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JeffW, high uintas, Calamity Jean

          groups claiming the be "social welfare" organizations, thus to enabling them to keep the identity of their donors secret, if there is sufficient reason to believe that the primary purpose of the organizations is political.  By giving themselves names that align with political rabble rousers (i.e., Tea Party, Patriots, etc.), such groups invite scrutiny until the facts are known.  (I assure you, if they gave themselves the name "Occupy" they'd be in for the same kind of scrutiny.)  Once they proved themselves NOT to be primarily political, they were given the status they requested in their applications.  

          With the budget cuts to the IRS, and with the floodgates that the criminal SCOTUS decision, Citizens United, opened up, it's completely understandable that overworked, understaffed IRS employees would use shortcuts to get their task accomplished.

          "Why reasonable people go stark raving mad when anything involving a Negro comes up, is something I don’t pretend to understand." ~ Atticus Finch, "To Kill a Mockingbird"

          by SottoVoce on Thu May 23, 2013 at 03:36:40 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  None of that is accurate (0+ / 0-)

            The terms they used to target groups were only on the rw side.

            The use of these terms predated increase in applications

            That all applications were eventually approved indicates there was no reason to treat them differently in the first place.

            There are no excuses for subjective and arbitrary treatment by the IRS no matter who it is.

        •  Yes (0+ / 0-)

          The mistake was that the IRS was lazy. It's easy when an organization uses names like "Tea Party Patriots" and such, harder when they use "Americans For A Better Future" "Progress For America".

          They picked the easy ones, they should have dug deeper and picked all political tax shelter scams, left and right. They are a curse on our body politic.

          "The scientific nature of the ordinary man is to go on out and do the best you can." John Prine

          by high uintas on Thu May 23, 2013 at 11:49:02 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Actually (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            high uintas

            The 'easy ones" turned out to be innocent. I hope it was laziness. And after the investigation I hope the problem can be identified and rectified.

            I agree with:

            They picked the easy ones, they should have dug deeper and picked all political tax shelter scams, left and right.
            But I would say ALL a curse.
            They are a curse on our body politic.
      •  Not true. Noonan can usually get the gin to (3+ / 0-)

        her mouth with hardly any spillage.

        "George RR Martin is not your bitch" ~~ Neil Gaiman

        by tardis10 on Wed May 22, 2013 at 11:18:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Lois Lerner always seemed fishy to me (0+ / 0-)

      Even more so when she took the fifth, today.

      Her first action was to apologize for things that I don't think that the IRS did.

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