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View Diary: British Neo-Nazis are on the March (and Fox News is eager to help) (157 comments)

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  •  Would you join an organization (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    OllieGarkey, sethtriggs

    that had Nazis as members?

    Nothing human is alien to me.

    by WB Reeves on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 07:33:50 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Not if I knew they were there (0+ / 0-)

      But I still want to know whether there's any evidence that the EDL is actually a white supremacist organization. Otherwise it's like saying that Islam is all about terrorism because it includes some terrorists.

      I think that some people get confused about the difference between defending a culture, which is perfectly reasonable, and defending a race, which is obnoxious. Maybe I'm the one who's confused here and the EDL really is about defending whiteness. But I thought it was about defending British culture and laws from people who have said explicitly that they want to take it over and transform it.

      Please visit: http://www.jkmediasource.org

      by Noisy Democrat on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 07:37:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The comparison to Islam is false (5+ / 0-)

        Islam isn't a single organizational entity. Like Christianity and Judaism it is a religion with a multiplicity divisions denominations within it. The EDL is a political organization with a program, one which clearly has drawn Nazis into it's ranks.

        BTW, the whole notion of defending a culture is problematic. Cultures are not static entities. They are constantly in flux. English culture is no exception.

        Nothing human is alien to me.

        by WB Reeves on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 07:50:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Fair enough (0+ / 0-)

          I will think about that. Though I still think there's a difference between "some members" and "the purpose of the organization." Otherwise I could say that the Democratic Party stands for all sorts of things, based on the people who have been drawn into it who have different agendas. I'd still want to look at the official platform to see what's officially on the program.

          However, it may be that the EDL is hiding its true purpose. I'll keep an eye on it and read whatever relevant information I can find.

          I do think its legitimate for people to want to retain their culture and not have it supplanted by a foreign culture, though. I don't fault the Native Americans who tried to stop the Europeans from overrunning North America and replacing indigenous cultures with their own culture. In this case, the immigrants to England came legally, but I don't think many people understood that there would be some significant subset that actually wanted to supplant British culture and law with Islamic culture and law. I think they thought they were inviting in immigrants rather than colonists. So now they have a problem, and I don't know how they can solve it -- I'm certainly not saying the EDL has the answer! All I've been saying is that there genuinely is a problem.

          Please visit: http://www.jkmediasource.org

          by Noisy Democrat on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 07:59:09 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Oh, one other person associated with the EDL? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            swampyankee

            Anders Behring Brevik. He had contact with them, and was a member of the Norwegian Defense League.

            You'll remember him as the bomber and gunman who carried out a terrorist attack in Norway a few years back.

            An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

            by OllieGarkey on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 08:04:05 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yep -- total nutcase (0+ / 0-)

              I still think that there are normal people joining the EDL because of concerns they have that aren't being addressed. But they may be misled about the nature of what they're getting into. I'll keep looking for information.

              Please visit: http://www.jkmediasource.org

              by Noisy Democrat on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 08:48:58 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Whoa, this is an amazing read (0+ / 0-)

              This is by a British Muslim spelling out what he sees as the Muslim community's blind spots and why groups like the EDL get support despite their obnoxiousness. So this is the same problem I've been talking about, but described from the point of view of a Muslim. Take a look:

              http://leedsisoc.com/...

              Please visit: http://www.jkmediasource.org

              by Noisy Democrat on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 09:24:42 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Here are two other reads: (0+ / 0-)

                An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

                by OllieGarkey on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 10:00:10 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  That first one is really interesting (0+ / 0-)

                  They certainly make  a strong case. They don't address what it is that working-class non-Muslims are getting upset about, but they make a strong case that the EDL is the wrong place for them to turn.

                  You may not know the answer to this, but I notice that at the end of the article it says that "every campaign to stop a deportation" offers hope. Who's been getting deported and why is stopping it part of their campaign? I don't know what they're referring to. Maybe I'll poke around their website some more and see if I find any clues.

                  Please visit: http://www.jkmediasource.org

                  by Noisy Democrat on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 07:01:18 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Working Class non-muslims are being lied to. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    swampyankee

                    Technically and traditionally, the British government is an Anglican theocracy ruled by the queen.

                    Through agreements with parliament, they have set up a quasi-constitutional monarchy without a written constitution.

                    Somehow, the British people manage, though if you look at it on paper, it shouldn't really be possible. It's really fascinating.

                    But they have an official religion, an established religion, in the UK. Anglicanism. And the power of the crown is, legally, imbued with the power of the Christian god.

                    It is not constitutionally or legally possible for that anglican tradition to be supplanted without the total destruction of the British government, and a small minority of religious extremists will never, EVER, achieve that goal.

                    The working class people, and you, are being lied to by white nationalists like the EDL, who, once again, are fire-bombing mosques.

                    An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

                    by OllieGarkey on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 08:36:47 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Actually, I've gotten very little information (0+ / 0-)

                      from the EDL. If it seems to you that I don't know anything about them, that could be why. I have spent a lot of time listening to Pat Condell, who seems like a reasonable person, and I've followed accounts in British newspapers of things like the Muslim gangs that have targeted white girls for sex slavery, and seen video of Anjam Choudary and his crowd calling for the killing of anyone who insults Islam, and of "Muslim patrols" harassing people; things like that. They look like a very nasty crowd, and I don't understand how people can carry signs in the streets calling for beheadings and not be charged with incitement to violence, but then I may not understand British law.

                      Anyway, just to make sure I understand what you're saying -- you think that actually, any fears non-Muslims have about the activities of Muslim extremists are just fears that were planted by the EDL, and if the EDL didn't exist, non-Muslims would have very little concern about anything Muslims are doing?

                      Please visit: http://www.jkmediasource.org

                      by Noisy Democrat on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 09:07:53 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  They would have concerns, but those concerns would (4+ / 0-)

                        be based in reality, rather than based on racist lies.

                        There are real fears and real problems, and white nationalists like the EDL poison the discussion, by injecting lies into it.

                        The Sharia Courts are an internal problem that can be easily handled with targeted legislation. (For example, when it comes to adjudicating divorce, they cannot make decisions contrary to British Law.) One of the problems with that, as pointed out by BBC's Panorama, is that many Muslim women are not getting legally married, they're getting married solely in sharia courts.

                        The Scottish government has set up resources to make sure that doesn't become a problem in Scotland. When they were dealing with forced marriages, they created immediate targeted legislation to solve the problem, and they did it by engaging with the Asian community.

                        Also, Pat Condell is someone who's dangerously misinformed. Remember the so-called "Ground Zero Mosque?"

                        There was a Mosque inside the World Trade Center, and it was destroyed by the 9/11 attack. Muslims died in that attack. American Muslims are not generally the radicals that have cropped up in the UK.

                        No, there are some very valid concerns about radicalization, but firebombing mosques, beating muslims, and threatening moderate Muslims who are building mosques is not the way to discourage radicalism.

                        You're never going to hear me say that islamism is a-okay, and I oppose it just like I oppose dominionist theocratic christianity.

                        The solution to the current problems, as Humza Yousaf pointed out in that article I linked, is to give moderate Muslims the tools to deal with the bigots and assholes in their own community.

                        Community policing, engaging with the Muslim community, and a few specifically targeted laws can bring this situation under control.

                        And so far, this tactic hasn't been used, but I recently heard that Cameron was meeting with moderate and liberal Islamic groups. I think they're going to move in that direction now, after Woolrich.

                        When it is used, Islamism in the UK with wither and die.

                        To be completely honest, I wish they could just ban the Islam4UK group, The EDL, the BNP, the fascists and Islamists all together, but if they ban all of those groups together, they set a dangerous precedent, and they risk making everything much, much worse because of the blowback. They understand, as I understand, that taking away the free speech of these organizations won't make them go away, it will just make them more radical and more violent.

                        Pat Condell isn't always wrong, but he's usually wrong about Islam. He doesn't know what he's talking about.

                        The best group of people to talk to about the problems with Islam if you want a completely unfiltered and completely honest perspective is moderate and liberal Muslims, and former Muslim atheists.

                        Seek out those organizations, and if you like Condell, I think you'll like to hear from former Muslims. I think they would be right up your alley. And there are organizations made up of those folks in the UK.

                        An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

                        by OllieGarkey on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 09:24:01 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Here's an interesting article by a UK Muslim (0+ / 0-)

                          He characterizes the EDL as odious but points out that Unite Against Fascism can be just as bad and even host radical Muslims ranting against the kuffar (infidels), yet they don't get the same opprobrium from the left. He argues that if more liberals knew about this kind of Islamic radicalism, moderate Muslims would have a better chance of being heard.

                          http://www.thecommentator.com/...

                          Please visit: http://www.jkmediasource.org

                          by Noisy Democrat on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 10:14:58 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                      •  On this: (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Noisy Democrat
                        Anyway, just to make sure I understand what you're saying -- you think that actually, any fears non-Muslims have about the activities of Muslim extremists are just fears that were planted by the EDL, and if the EDL didn't exist, non-Muslims would have very little concern about anything Muslims are doing?
                        "Planted by" is incorrect. The fears--irrational, ignorant, emotional--often exist independent of the EDL. Those fears are "exploited by" the EDL, as they are by hatemongers in the US, to advance their agenda of rationalizing bigotry.

                        Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. (Terry Pratchett)

                        by angry marmot on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 09:56:18 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  Pat Condell? Really? (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Ahianne

                        A man who, like many on the right, mischaracterized Park51?

                        A man who has said that Islam would be outlawed in civilized society if it wasn't a religion?

                        A man who has called Islam a religion of violence, which ignores the fact that just as much, if not more, violence has been committed in the name of Christianity?

                        What about his views on Islam seems reasonable to you?

                        •  Do you believe that Christianity (0+ / 0-)

                          in the modern world is as violent and as much of a threat to the world as Islam currently is? Religions go through different stages of development; I don't see how any reasonable person could possibly say that Christianity, right now or in the immediately foreseeable future, is anywhere near as violent as Islam currently is. So yes, on that point I think he's reasonable and solidly backed up by mountains of evidence.

                          Please visit: http://www.jkmediasource.org

                          by Noisy Democrat on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 10:12:23 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

          •  Seriously though (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            OllieGarkey

            the idea that right wing Islamists, a minority of a minority in the UK, are anywhere close to supplanting English culture and imposing sharia law is laughable. Short of a mass conversion by the majority of the population, there's no credible scenario for such.

            Nothing human is alien to me.

            by WB Reeves on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 12:55:54 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  It seems to me (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          OllieGarkey

          that "pro-western values" tends, more often than not, to be code for "white".

          Groups that talk about protecting pro-western values, western culture, etc., are almost always really talking about protecting white people.  This is what they consider Western.

      •  Defending Culture/Race (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        OllieGarkey, sethtriggs

        I'm not sure if you're just not paying attention or don't get the concept but defending a culture is defending whiteness. The extreme right, including StormFront, Ronald Reagan, Sarah Palin, Karl Rove, have made it acceptable to use culture as the dog whistle replacement word for race.  

        The diary points out that the same thing is happening in England as people try to cover their want to see their race, this time defined in religious terms, keep the dominant position in society. However, race is no longer socially acceptable so the term culture is used instead. You say  

        I think that some people get confused about the difference between defending a culture, which is perfectly reasonable, and defending a race, which is obnoxious.
        Defending a culture is not perfectly reasonable because culture, just like everything else, should be carefully scrutinized before it's blindly consider worth defense.  
        •  But then once people *do* scrutinize (0+ / 0-)

          their culture, and decide that they prefer their culture, law and traditions to those of some outside group -- you're saying they still shouldn't defend it?

          I strongly disagree that everyone who wants to hold onto Western values and Western culture is racist or wants to see only white people in charge. It simply isn't true. To say that culture = race denies a voice to people who want to stand up for their cultural values.

          But I have a question -- very seriously. What is it that you think is driving the EDL? You talked about people wanting to keep their dominant position in society -- which people, and what position? I think what's driving people to join the EDL is that working-class British people are afraid of what they see as the intolerance and violence of some Muslim immigrants who do things like run sex slavery gangs with impunity (until the very recent crackdown), and the antics of people like Anjam Choudary, who organizes rallies in which people carry signs with lovely sentiments like "Butcher those who insult Islam" and "Sharia for the UK." I think they're afraid that appeasement now will eventually lead to serious conflict -- not next year, but in a couple of generations.

          What do you think is motivating them? Simple fear that white people won't be on top anymore?

          Please visit: http://www.jkmediasource.org

          by Noisy Democrat on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 07:24:39 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Yes. (0+ / 0-)

      As a corollary of not joining any organization that would have me as a member, of course.

      Chechnya: Russia's North Carolina.

      by NE2 on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 08:32:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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