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View Diary: You are on Indian Land. (131 comments)

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  •  I don't understand why you think were... (20+ / 0-)

    ...attacked by this diary. Or by my comment in it. I don't see any hatred addressed toward you. I don't see any of us saying get off this land or that you aren't a human being worthy of respect. Many of us have been treated with disrespect and racism and pure hatred in our lives, simply for being Indian. People I have known are dead because they were Indian, because they resisted or talked back.

    What's objectionable is the ignorance, the continued put-downs and stereotypes and slurs, the continued efforts to dismantle the reservation system, the continued violation of treaties and other agreements that were supposed to be permanent, the exploitation of Indian land with sweetheart deals for non-Indian corporations, the continued kidnapping of our children and placing of them in non-Indian foster homes, the continued efforts to keep Indians from exercising their right to vote, the continued lies of commission and omission in many of the schoolbooks of this nation.

    As for your hypothetical history: Nobody knows what would have happened if metal ores had been more available to indigenous people here, if they'd built ocean-going vessels, invented gunpowder and adopted a proseltyzing religion to convert all they into contact with at gunpoint. What happened happened. We weren't the progenitors of physical and cultural genocide, we were its targets. The process, while achieved now with little bloodshed, is ongoing.

    Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

    by Meteor Blades on Thu May 23, 2013 at 06:49:51 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  What I am trying to say with my hypothetical (0+ / 0-)

      history is that in my opinion there are no bad guys and there are no good guys.

      Ask me to do something, I will.

      Get the 'oopsie' out of 'keep and bear arms' see GunFAIL and Gun Crazy diaries weekly.

      by 88kathy on Thu May 23, 2013 at 07:28:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hey Kathy, we are all happy to be (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        grumpelstillchen, Patango, navajo, scribe

        here. This land has become my land and your land but it was the Indian's first.
        Why does the truth bother you so?
        This very beautiful diary is merely emphasizing that which we know to be true.
        I think an apology is in order.

        Maya Angelou: "Without courage, we cannot practice any other virtue with consistency. We can't be kind, true, merciful, generous, or honest."

        by JoanMar on Thu May 23, 2013 at 07:57:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  First before the Europeans, but first? You know (0+ / 0-)

          that?

          Get the 'oopsie' out of 'keep and bear arms' see GunFAIL and Gun Crazy diaries weekly.

          by 88kathy on Thu May 23, 2013 at 08:01:44 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  First before the Europeans. (6+ / 0-)

            That is what we know to be true. Do you have history books showing something different?
            What's your point?
            Can you just apologize and leave the diary gracefully?
            I think you can.

            Maya Angelou: "Without courage, we cannot practice any other virtue with consistency. We can't be kind, true, merciful, generous, or honest."

            by JoanMar on Thu May 23, 2013 at 08:04:01 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  My point is that first is something you believe. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JoanMar, grumpelstillchen

              And I am sorry. Really sorry.

              Get the 'oopsie' out of 'keep and bear arms' see GunFAIL and Gun Crazy diaries weekly.

              by 88kathy on Thu May 23, 2013 at 08:06:00 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Have a good night, Kathy. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                JayBat

                I disagree with you here buy I know you have a good heart.
                See you around. :)

                Maya Angelou: "Without courage, we cannot practice any other virtue with consistency. We can't be kind, true, merciful, generous, or honest."

                by JoanMar on Thu May 23, 2013 at 08:11:57 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  ...but I know... (0+ / 0-)

                  Maya Angelou: "Without courage, we cannot practice any other virtue with consistency. We can't be kind, true, merciful, generous, or honest."

                  by JoanMar on Thu May 23, 2013 at 08:12:27 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  That is my point. There are no good guys there (0+ / 0-)

                    are no bad guys. There's only you and me.

                    I will always say I am sorry to you.

                    Get the 'oopsie' out of 'keep and bear arms' see GunFAIL and Gun Crazy diaries weekly.

                    by 88kathy on Thu May 23, 2013 at 08:17:59 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Glad to know... (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      JoanMar, navajo, JayBat

                      ...Hitler was neither good nor bad!  My mistake, I guess.  Sorry, but sometimes I simply must reserve the right to be a rigid absolutist.  There is right, and there is wrong.  There is good, and there is bad.  

                      What my fellow Caucasians did to the indigenous people who were living here BEFORE we came in massive numbers is, in my not so humble opinion, just plain wrong and bad.  I can give my white relations the benefit of the doubt that perhaps they did not know any better, but no way can I say it was neither good nor bad!   IMO:  It was and is wrong.

                      Bradley Manning and Julian Assange are being persecuted for telling the truth. Paul Craig Roberts

                      by dharmasyd on Fri May 24, 2013 at 12:12:40 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

              •  you said "ask me to do something (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                88kathy, susans, Patango, scribe

                and I will."

                Several people have asked you to let it go. You haven't done that.
                You haven't read the diary carefully, have misquoted it, haven't even bothered to look up basic DKOS stuff like DBAD. You've taken from it what YOU wanted to take, not what I put in it.

                Yep, you've managed to poop all over this diary. And you know what? I don't even need an apology. If you're now saying your sorry, I'll accept the apology, but I sure as hell am not going to clean up the mess, nor am I going to stick around to see whether or how you try to clean it up.

                I'm a gardner. I spend a good 3 months of the year up to my elbows in various forms of dung (often barehanded).

                My neighbor's cat's name is "Poupon" (because she's Grey). Secretly, I call her Poop-on, because she poops all over stuff.

                It's not the poop I've got problems with: it's the pampers.

                Yep, you've been a poopshit in here. Now, will you please pampers and DBAD anymore?

                •  Native Americans did not destroy their enviroment (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  scribe, ladybug53

                  like the Europeans did. They would not drink the water when they came because much of the water they had known was so polluted it made people sick.

                  Europeans had fouled their water by their plumbing systems emptying into it.

                  The thousands of years  of drinking alcohol (which did not kill them like water -  although they did not know why) built up their tolerance to it.

                  Native Americans did not foul their water with their waste.
                  They had no need to make or use alcohol, so they had no tolerance for it.

                  That is why alcohol had such a devastating effect on Native Americans.

                  I cannot even begin to write about the destruction  which came with the Europeans, to a land that had been respected and nurtured by the Native Population.

            •  Clovis people are kind of interesting (0+ / 0-)

              here

              His new theory is that Clovis people came not from Siberia, but from Europe. The Solutrean people of France and Spain were their predecessors, he says.
              There is always more to learn. And it really was a very long time ago.

              Get the 'oopsie' out of 'keep and bear arms' see GunFAIL and Gun Crazy diaries weekly.

              by 88kathy on Thu May 23, 2013 at 08:16:39 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Unproven, but interesting - and irrelevant (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                88kathy, Patango, JayBat, Meteor Blades

                since there is also now plenty of evidence for PRE-Clovis people who certainly didn't come from Europe.

                Getting shirty about whose ancestors came from where when is a good way to provoke a hair-pulling match, and we've had more than enough of that already.

                If it's
                Not your body,
                Then it's
                Not your choice
                And it's
                None of your damn business!

                by TheOtherMaven on Thu May 23, 2013 at 09:15:06 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  So what? Irrelevant! (0+ / 0-)

                Bradley Manning and Julian Assange are being persecuted for telling the truth. Paul Craig Roberts

                by dharmasyd on Fri May 24, 2013 at 12:15:17 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Way outside the mainstream views on this... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                navajo

                ...subject. That doesn't mean the scientists who have made this claim for many years are wrong, but they have a whole lot of "ifs" to account for, many of which are at least as hard to accept as claims that Phoenicians or Carthaginians colonized the Americas millennia later.

                Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

                by Meteor Blades on Fri May 24, 2013 at 12:18:11 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Archaeology. (0+ / 0-)

            Science.  It iz yur frend.  Specifically, archaeology.

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