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View Diary: Obama Said That He Didn't Agree with Much of What Medea Benjamin Said. Well, What Did She Say? (109 comments)

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  •  I'm alive, and so are you. (0+ / 0-)

    We are free to chit-chat on the internet because somebody is defending us against guys who want to kill us. If Obama and the CIA not killed so many terrorists, innocent Americans would be dead who are alive today (maybe even one of us). The Constitution is not more important to me than my life.

    •  and yet if you open the wrong web site (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sandino, aliasalias, JesseCW

      or chat with the wrong individual on line

      or use the wrong combination of words together

      or sit at a restaurant where some random group of strangers happens to also be sitting

      you slip closer into the sticky, tangled web of being branded and targeted yourself.

      There are no checks and balances here.

      There are no trials here.

      Everybody's freedom's are being damaged here.

    •  Perhaps if the United States, (7+ / 0-)

      including numerous presidents and the CIA, had not killed so many innocent people across the world, there would not have been so many terrorists in the first place.  And a lot of innocent Americans would be alive who are dead today.

      "If a man loses his reverence for any part of life, he will lose his reverence for all of life." — Albert Schweitzer

      by mozartssister on Sat May 25, 2013 at 12:24:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Or--meant to add-- (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        417els, kurt

        supported other countries who do, as well.

        It's not that we are to blame--it's just that we are responsible for our actions on the world stage.  And we often pretend we are not.  

        It's a long, vicious cycle of violence, with complex causes. And everybody pretends they're the good guys.

        "If a man loses his reverence for any part of life, he will lose his reverence for all of life." — Albert Schweitzer

        by mozartssister on Sat May 25, 2013 at 12:25:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah, I was waiting for that one. (0+ / 0-)

        It's all our fault. Okay.

        •  That's exactly what I did NOT say. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          barleystraw, kurt

          See added comment, right above you.  

          But pretending we're 100% innocent in the world while  others are 100% evil is simplistic, jingoistic, and ultimately unhelpful, not to mention untrue.  Actions have consequences, including ours--so we'd do well to act carefully and wisely if we want to protect our long-term best interests.

          We have a long history of supporting countries and politicians across the globe who oppressed their own people and others.  We also directly--as with Native Americans, as with drones--have a history of turning a blind eye to what we're actually doing to other people who "just don't matter" as much.  

          No matter what side you stand on or where you cut the chain of cause and effect to say "This was the beginning," there's always a justification for violence, for striking back.  Which is why this goes on and on and on . . .

          Or what is your explanation?  Why us, on 9/11?  Why not Canada or Uruguay or Nepal?  Because they "hate our freedoms"?  

          "If a man loses his reverence for any part of life, he will lose his reverence for all of life." — Albert Schweitzer

          by mozartssister on Sat May 25, 2013 at 03:13:35 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  For one thing, they hate that we're rich. (0+ / 0-)

            We're wealthier than most any other country. They hate that we're friends with Israel. And they hate our breed of evangelical protestantism. And they hated people like George W. Bush, who is obviously an idiot. People who think that if we just leave them alone they will stop are hopelessly naive. This is a tiny percentage of Moslems who are violent in nature and have lots of reasons to kill Westerners. The drone attacks have coincided with a reduction in terrorist attacks, and the drone attacks themselves have declined over time. So it is clearly working.

            •  Coincided? Are you saying that there is a (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mozartssister

              causality here? As far as most of the world is concerned Obama is just another aggressor like Bush. It is not only that we are rich (or that our masters are rich, more appropriately). It is that we exploit resources and deny access to these resources to other countries. We have supported corrupt dictators with American military force while these dictators stole from the people. I/P is a huge issue that places the US in the position of being blames by just about every country in the world holding us responsible for what Israel does. Basic issues like access to water, the ability to trade, the ability to access International courts are limited by the US.

              Drones are not working. Carpet bombing did not help in Vietnam. The Blitz did not work for the Germans. And allied air attacks on Germany did not end the war or even reduce military armament production. Drones unify our enemies against us. Something that may be a smart tactical move maybe a very bad strategic move.

            •  We left them alone for 100 years. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mozartssister

              Did they attack us?

              Between the end of the conflict with the Barbary Pirates and our attack on the Moros in the Philippines, did we have any conflict with any Muslims anywhere?

              "The thing about smart motherfuckers is that they sound like crazy motherfuckers to dumb motherfuckers." Robert Kirkman

              by JesseCW on Sun May 26, 2013 at 05:17:50 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Well actually is kind of is. People's behavior is (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          417els

          partly shaped by their history. And we have a long history of interfering in the affairs of other countries despite being warned by people like Washington to avoid this habit. We resented the Soviet Union because we felt it to be a threat. Many countries and peoples across the world resent us because they perceive us to be a threat. Our policy towards the Middle East, Latin America and Asia is deeply resented. We also go to war pretty quickly. And I mean over the long haul. So when we act in a way that is seen as bulling we have to expect some blowback. And there is precious little real difference between our ethics and the ethics of our adversaries. I know 911 changed everything, right. But the US has been making war on innocent people for most of the 20th Century. WWI and WWII were necessary but American involvement in those wars lasted less than 6 years combined. If your country was invaded or foreign forces stationed against the will of the people you would scream blue murder. And possibly resist. So read a little history before you wave the flag. And think about how you would feel if the stuff that we do to others happened to US.

        •  No, doc2. It's your fault. You and the other (0+ / 0-)

          supporters of the abuses of peoples abroad which have endangered us.

          Don't say "our".  We're not in favor of creating terrorists from Yemen to Pakistan by blowing children into bits for entertainment.

          That's you and yours.

          "The thing about smart motherfuckers is that they sound like crazy motherfuckers to dumb motherfuckers." Robert Kirkman

          by JesseCW on Sun May 26, 2013 at 05:16:12 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Bullshit (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      aliasalias, barleystraw, JesseCW

      I asked you to prove it and you didn't even try. ASAIC you may as well be a troll for spouting this self-evident McCarthyite bullshit.

      And bullshit all the more because even if killing some of these "terrorists" has kept us safe, you have no proof that it had to be done unconstitutionally.

      If you believe this bullshit then you're a sad fool. If you're just saying it then you're a troll. Only you really know which you are.

      I bet you still believe Saddam was behind 9/11 and had WMD, too.

      Btw, there is no Santa Claus.

      "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

      by kovie on Sat May 25, 2013 at 01:03:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If I am a fool then so is the president himself. (0+ / 0-)

        And if I am a troll, I've certainly waited here a long time to reveal my true nature. Feeling a bit of CT today? Anyhow, you are alive, and whether or not you appreciate it President Obama is doing his best to keep you that way. My guess is that you probably will someday realize that he was right to do so. I hope for your sake that you get over this ridiculous bias you have against your own country.

        •  Still haven't answered my question (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          barleystraw

          Have a good day, Mr. Nixon.

          "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

          by kovie on Sat May 25, 2013 at 01:14:54 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  What question? The thing about (0+ / 0-)

            proving that one of the guys we killed would have eventually killed some of us? I thought that question was too stupid to even address. You realize why it is stupid and impossible to prove, right?

            •  So you admit that you don't know (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              barleystraw, JesseCW

              or really care if they were in fact terrorists, so long as you're "safe", making your disinterest in respecting the constitution kind of quaint in comparison.

              Got it.

              I'll ask one last time, to give you a chance to not look like the authoritarian Islamophone you appear to be: How do you know that all of the people Obama has ordered killed were terrorists, and why was it necessary for him to violate the constitution to have them killed?

              Also, were you just as OK with this when Bush was president, or are you one of those "I trust Obama to break the law" fake liberals?

              "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

              by kovie on Sat May 25, 2013 at 03:07:00 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I don't know that Obama's record is (0+ / 0-)

                perfect, and I never claimed to. What I know is not very important in terms of whether it is good policy for the United States. All we can do is elect good people like Obama to tell us what he thinks needs to be done, and it is up to us to judge whether we think what he says is true. For some reason you think he is lying when he says what he is doing is necessary. You think that you must personally be presented with proof every single time the US initiates an attack or else you will go online and say the attack was a mistake. That's fine, that is your right. But I don't think you understand the concept of a representative democracy. Obama makes these decisions on our behalf. And I, and the majority of people around the world who are the targets of terrorists, applaud his efforts. I do trust Obama, as crazy as you think that is. And I am as liberal as they come.

                •  No I expect this President to follow the law. (0+ / 0-)

                  Both national and international as dictated by the Constitution. To uphold the Oath of Office which demands that the Constitution be protected and no your sorry ass. It was wrong when Bush did it and it is just as wrong when Obama does it. Our nation is a nation of war criminals. We have tortured people and Obama is required to prosecute the war criminals whether it is good for our national morale or not. The US of A has committed war crimes and violated treaties that we signed. The Constitution requires that those treaties be treated as the Law of the Land. But those who committed war crimes are still free. So no Obama's decision making on doing the right thing is not something I trust or have confidence in.

                  But if you sleep better knowing that innocents are being slaughter so you can feel secure then go right ahead.

            •  Care to offer any facts that lead to that (0+ / 0-)

              conclusion? Or are you a student of the Cheney-Rumsfeld School of Sophistry? Why did we not send in our teams of Super Ninja JSOC operators and arrest this guy and his kid? Are we not Number 1!!!!!!!!! Hell Yah Murica

              So you have an administration that can send an executioner to a remote desert and deliver vigilante justice yet we are too afaid to send some lawyers to question bankers over corruption because the bankers feelings may get hurt.

              We have a President who claims the right to decide who lives and who dies without a court or a trial and claims to power to make war anywhere in the world he deems fit because of a "threat" but said same President lacks the power and authority to decide to close a military base prison in a foreign country because those meanies in Congress say no.

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