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View Diary: Real Rape Prevention: Don't Be That Guy (94 comments)

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  •  Thank you (62+ / 0-)

    There was a lot more I wanted to say, and I'm afraid it could have turned into the longest diary ever.

    One of the many things I hate about the policing-victims model of "rape prevention" is that it assumes of course men are going to rape if given the opportunity.  That's a horrible view of men, grossly unfair to the majority, and conveniently enabling to the rapist minority.

    I shall die, but that is all that I shall do for Death; I am not on his payroll. - Edna St. Vincent Millay

    by Tara the Antisocial Social Worker on Sun May 26, 2013 at 07:05:31 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Thought-provoking and insightful analogy (8+ / 0-)

      Suppose we improved enforcement of laws against sexual violence to the level we finally reached with drunk driving, and did the same with social attitudes.

      Would it then be palatable to hear about safety tactics for possible targets, just as we teach young drivers to steer clear of anyone driving too slowly and not staying in his lane?

      Freedom isn't free. Patriots pay taxes.

      by Dogs are fuzzy on Sun May 26, 2013 at 11:39:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Nothing wrong with immediate self-protection (19+ / 0-)

        and certainly I wouldn't want women left with the impression that there's nothing they can do to be safer.

        But a lot of the "helpful tips" are designed for the stranger-in-the-bushes scenario, and useless in the much more common situation of acquaintance rape.  And too often they're used after the fact to shame the victim and excuse the perpetrator.  I've never heard anyone suggest that a drunk driver should go free because the other driver failed to recognize the danger.

        I shall die, but that is all that I shall do for Death; I am not on his payroll. - Edna St. Vincent Millay

        by Tara the Antisocial Social Worker on Sun May 26, 2013 at 12:09:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well said again. (6+ / 0-)

          Is there any literature on recognizing an impending dangerous situation of the real-life variety? If so it would be something that would benefit bystanders.

          Freedom isn't free. Patriots pay taxes.

          by Dogs are fuzzy on Sun May 26, 2013 at 12:43:23 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Absolutely (9+ / 0-)

          You nailed it.

          One of the problems with "preventing" acquaintance rape is that there is a very small window of time for the potential victim to object, fight back, or otherwise get out of the situation and get safe.  

          If the potential victim does object and/or fight back during that time, before the perpetrator actually succeeds in getting her under control, likely, she'll be met with comments such as this:

          "What's your problem?"
          "I wasn't doing anything."
          "You're imagining things."
          "You're overreacting."
          "God!  Take a chill pill!"
          "You're such a b!tch"
          "As if I'd want to be with you anyway."

          And so on.  Since women are socialized very early on to value being liked, "being nice" or "not making waves" often trumps staying safe or maintaining our physical integrity - especially when "overreacting" gets you labeled as a weirdo.

          •  The best example I can give (12+ / 0-)

            is, unfortunately, something I can't link to because I read it on some obscure blog a couple years ago and have no idea where I found it.

            The gist:  college-age woman was at a party and a guy she barely knew just came up and started kissing her.  She was uncomfortable, but had been raised in a dysfunctional family where she'd never been taught about respecting boundaries, so she couldn't really articulate that it wasn't ok.  And she remembered seeing a similar occurrence at another party, and when the woman had objected, everyone treated her like she'd done something wrong, spoiling everyone's fun.

            So, the blogger let this guy kiss her, and when she left with a group of people to walk back to the bus stop, he engaged her in conversation and walked slower than the rest of the group, occasionally kissing or touching her, and eventually got her a block or two behind everyone else.  At which point he pulled her into an alley and raped her.  She was in total disbelief, so stunned that she couldn't even react fast enough to resist.

            With years between her and the assault, she realized that the initial kiss was a boundary test:  he understood that it made her uncomfortable, and was checking to see how much he could get away with.  The whole thing had been planned in advance, and he'd probably done it to other women.

            Rewind.

            What if, at the first party, people had backed up the young woman who didn't want to be kissed?  What if their reaction had been, "Who let this creepy guy in?"  That would not only have helped the blogger understand what was happening when she was the target, it would also have sent a message to any predatory men present:  Don't try this tactic.

            I shall die, but that is all that I shall do for Death; I am not on his payroll. - Edna St. Vincent Millay

            by Tara the Antisocial Social Worker on Sun May 26, 2013 at 04:33:38 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Exactly. (2+ / 0-)

            In this scenario, recognizing the danger soon enough, fighting back and escaping in this climate could also still lead to traumatization and being ostracized, still hurtful and damaging to the victim.

      •   A man goes into a bar in a bad part of town, has (16+ / 0-)

        too much to drink, flashes a big wad of cash around, then, when he leaves, decides to take a short cut through a dark alley....where he is confronted by a man twice his size who says, "Give me your money or you'll regret it!"

        Has a crime been committed? Of course not. The man went to a bad part of town. He drank too much. He let everyone know what he had to offer. Then he went into a dark alley. He wanted to get mugged. He was begging to get mugged.  He didn't fight the mugger. This is just a matter of getting pissed about it afterwards and wanting to get even.  

        Said no one ever.

        But if a woman goes to a bar in a bad part of town, in a short skirt and pushup bra, drinks a bit too much, decides to go home through an alley, gets confronted by a man twice her size who says "Shut up and do what I tell you or you'll regret it" so she doesn't fight and is used sexually, she is, of course, a slut and a whore who wanted sex and therefore, no crime is involved.  

        Says everyone all the time.

        Freedom has two enemies: Those who want to control everyone around them...and those who feel no need to control themselves.

        by Sirenus on Sun May 26, 2013 at 03:08:33 PM PDT

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        •  The sad truth is that most rapes (15+ / 0-)

          aren't stranger rapes in dark alleys. They occur at the home of the victim or a friend or family member, within a mile of her home (a park for instances), at work or on the campus of her school.  Places she cannot avoid even if she wanted to. And most rapes are perpetrated by acquaintances--which can mean her ex-boyfriend, the guy she is currently dating, the guy she talks to occasionally before class, the pizza delivery guy, a co-worker....anyone she knows however slightly. This is why most of the advice given woman really sucks.

          I could have easily been a victim. I was in grad school. Class got out around 9.  I always called a cab because I didn't own a cab and the bus stop was totally unlit.  Made my call,  stood in a well-lit area by the library waiting for my cab.  Then a van full of extremely drunk frat rats pulled up. I did not look at them.  They made several charming invitations involving wolf whistles, obscene gestures and great pick-up lines like "Baby, wanna fuck?"

          Finally, since they showed no signs of leaving, I replied, "Not interested."

          Eventually they pulled away.  I was terrified they they
          d come back--and no way could I get into the library before they coul;d grab me (the only door open was the front one, and the phone was nowhere near there).Luckily my cab finally arrived before they came back--but I had pulled out my nail;file determined to at least mark them if it came to a fight.

          I got smarter later.  WHen I worked nights at the public library as a librrian, my husband woul;d meet me so I didn't have to walk to the bus alone.  When I worked in Jacklsonville for a different library system, I had a car--but I also had canister of pepperspray (before I got it, I carried a small can of hairspray--spray that in someone's eyes and it's as bad as pepper spray).

          The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

          by irishwitch on Sun May 26, 2013 at 03:27:51 PM PDT

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          •  Reality, isn't it. Sad! My wife once tried to walk (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kyril, irishwitch

            the 10 minutes from our apartment to her job. It was a harrowing experience, and we didn't want to try to find out if it was a one time thing, or always. We just made sure that she never had to walk again.

            There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

            by oldpotsmuggler on Sun May 26, 2013 at 05:23:09 PM PDT

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          •  Good info. My point though, was that "foolish" (3+ / 0-)

            decisions by men and women are treated entirely differently when it comes to assigning blame.

            And why....why should you have to be escorted by your husband? Why should you have to have pepper spray?

            Because frat boys, drunk or not, buy into the insane idea that women are fair game. That they have a right to do whatever they want, and that if a woman gets raped, it was her fault because she didn't have someone with her or she wasn't armed with pepper spray.

            And sadly, far too many people in our culture concur.

            Freedom has two enemies: Those who want to control everyone around them...and those who feel no need to control themselves.

            by Sirenus on Sun May 26, 2013 at 07:18:58 PM PDT

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            •  I preferred safety over autonomy. (4+ / 0-)

              We had a particular patron at the branch who scared the bejeezus out of me--a short body builder type I christened  the miniature Stanley Kowlaski.  One day he tried to chat up an incredibly sweet and naive 12 year old girl from the local Jewish school. I found more material  for her to use in her project and asked her to move to a different  because the books were really heavy (the truth). Stanley came over to my ref desk and lit into me as soon as I was alone (two of us worked the late afternoon session at the ref desk). And he didn't like that the security guard was watching him/

              I had ro take bus to a train that night--meeting my hsuband in Manhattan that night.  I made the damned guard stand outside  and watch me get my bus. That guy scared the shit out of me.  ANd I was right.  A few months later they got a new guard who was ex-NYPD.  He caught this guy  positioning himself where he could always be right near a young schoolgirl. Several of them complained because they found him creepy. He banned him from the library.  Stanley waited outside one night until the staff had left and the guard was locking up for the night.  He used brass knuckles on the guard--23 stitches on his head.  He was arrested.  We learned he was a released mental patient. ANd he had a criminal record.

              I didn't like asking my hsuband to come to the branch (he didn't mind because he liked brosing the new books--a voracious reader) but I considered my options and chose safety.  I don't know martial arts and don't own a gun. Tried to take martial arts but I have bum ankles and a back injury so that didn't work.  

              No I shouldn't have required an escort or pepper spray (or hair spray for that matter).  ANd those frat rats should ahve been arrested for drunk driving and disTurbing the peace. ANd driving, had I owned a car wasn't all that safe--4 raopes in the student parking lot that semester alone.

              I want sex ed to cover what consent means. I want teenage males to learn from a cop what constitutes a crime--and that even if it's not a crime, sex with someone passed odut is certainly ethically wrong (though in most states someone unconscious can't consent).  We need to teach MEN not to rape.

              The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

              by irishwitch on Sun May 26, 2013 at 08:34:49 PM PDT

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              •  I'm with you on the NEED to take precautions. (4+ / 0-)

                I'm just saying that its damn wrong that we HAVE to take precautions.

                And your final paragraph makes my point. It's time the onus for stopping rape and harassment falls on those  those in our society who currently think that it's a woman's job to prevent it.

                Freedom has two enemies: Those who want to control everyone around them...and those who feel no need to control themselves.

                by Sirenus on Sun May 26, 2013 at 09:40:02 PM PDT

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                •  There are times you can't take precautions (2+ / 0-)

                  Should a ten year old have to take precautions against being raped by her suxteen year old female babysutter?

                  Should a woman have to take precautions against beig raped abd beaten in her own home by the guy across the street, who was a frequent visitor, good friend of her boyfriend, and had asked to wait fir her boyfriend while she was julienning vegetables for stir-fry?

                  Should a woman have to take precautions against being raped in her home by her husband?

                  I've been raped all those ways.

                  Organ donors save lives! A donor's kidney gave me my life back on 02/18/11; he lives on in me. Please talk with your family about your wish to donate.

                  Why are war casualty counts "American troops" and "others" but never "human beings"?

                  by Kitsap River on Mon May 27, 2013 at 05:04:40 PM PDT

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                  •  God, so sorry to hear this. (0+ / 0-)

                    The society says "It's up to the woman. If she gets raped, she wasn't dressed right, she went to the wrong place, she said the wrong thing, she didn't fight hard enough, she didn't scream loud enough, she smiled at the wrong person, she should have know he was dangerous, she should have stayed with other people, she's lying, she misunderstood, she had some drinks, she should have DONE THINGS DIFFERENTLY....it's her fault."

                    And as for the rapist? Shrug.  "Boys will be boys."  

                    Surely one of the most loathsome phrases in any language.

                    I'm so sick of this attitude....and what it means for women and even men who are raped...that it literall makes me sick.

                    Freedom has two enemies: Those who want to control everyone around them...and those who feel no need to control themselves.

                    by Sirenus on Sat Jun 01, 2013 at 08:00:07 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

    •  Found this on Addicting Info Friday (12+ / 0-)

      This Man Has A Drunk Woman On His Sofa: Watch What Happens Next (VIDEO)

      Ignore the leading title, it's a video of what SHOULD ALWAYS happen, and sometimes does.  The author found this on YouTube.  Worth a look.

      Conservatism is a function of age - Rousseau
      I've been 19 longer'n you've been alive - me

      by watercarrier4diogenes on Sun May 26, 2013 at 11:55:06 AM PDT

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      •  Someone once asked me what the "guys" should (8+ / 0-)

        have done to that drunk girl.

        "Got a car, put her in the back seat and driven her home!"

        Freedom has two enemies: Those who want to control everyone around them...and those who feel no need to control themselves.

        by Sirenus on Sun May 26, 2013 at 03:13:21 PM PDT

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        •  You know, I'm good with "put her in bed, (4+ / 0-)

          laid on the floor next to it, and then got all of them out there safely the next morning".

          I mean, whatever gets the job done.

          There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

          by oldpotsmuggler on Sun May 26, 2013 at 05:30:33 PM PDT

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          •  I think "home" or "hospital" is a better answer (5+ / 0-)

            for an unresponsive person. If she'd merely been drunk but responsive, I'd be OK with putting her to bed and keeping an eye on her, but the descriptions of this particular girl on this particular night are cause for serious concern.

            Drunk teenagers are not equipped to judge the difference between "passed out drunk, but will probably wake up fine in the morning" and "alcohol poisoning and/or drug interaction, likely to die or experience permanent major organ damage in her sleep." Even the former is potentially dangerous because of the risk of vomiting and aspiration.

            When Evan Westlake saw the girl passed out on the floor, he should have known what to do. He should have been taught how to handle that situation just as he was taught how to handle his drunk friend. "If you see someone passed out and obviously unresponsive, take them to the hospital" should be a basic lesson taught right alongside "if you see someone drunk threatening to drive, take away their keys." It is the correct response, and in this case it would also have kept her from being raped. Or at least ended the ordeal, depending on the timing.

            "Let’s just move on, treat everybody with firmness, fairness, dignity, compassion and respect. Let’s be Marines." - Sgt. Maj Michael Barrett on DADT repeal

            by kyril on Sun May 26, 2013 at 07:18:37 PM PDT

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            •  Well, if the teaching you want finally gets done, (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              kyril

              I'm fine with it, too.

              There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

              by oldpotsmuggler on Sun May 26, 2013 at 09:29:46 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

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