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View Diary: "I HAVE HAD ENOUGH!" (39 comments)

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  •  We fight them by being right, and by being true to (5+ / 0-)

    our progressive principles.

    I understand your frustration that you don't bring a knife to a gunfight.  But in a war of ideas and ideals, we cannot win by beating the opposition over the head.

    Some people cannot be pushed, but they can be led.

    How?

    Suppose we start replying to those fb/email/twitter items with questions geared to make them think?

    Questions like:
    Do you really think I would vote to harm my own country?
    Why would I want the ACA if it didn't have a hope of helping?
    Why do so many R's refuse to help the most needy among us, even in their own states?

    Those are only a few of the questions we can ask of the people who know and respect us.  There are others for those people who don't know us, but need to stop and think more often.

    Is it perfect?  No.  But it's a start.

    Marti

    We cannot call ourselves a civilised society if we refuse to protect the weakest among us.

    by The Marti on Sun May 26, 2013 at 09:54:59 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  As I said, I have tried... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      The Marti

      fighting with logic. But the post I am replying to usually appeals to a person's visceral rage and a few, even tempered lines of logic do little to persuade them.  If logic could win this war, do you think there would still be people out there who believe President obama's birth certificate was a fake?

      In a debate, when you are defending yourself, you have already lost.  It's kind of like when someone lies and then calls you a liar.  You just like childish saying "nuh-uh, you are the liar!'  They have already scored the point and moved on while you are still trying to defend the already scored basket.  Since the opponent is unrestrained by finding actual truths, you have know idea what they are going to throw at you next.  It is not a fair fight and that is precisely how they like it.

      Without a media to call them on their lies, it is just a hesaid/she said affair given equal playing time and there is really nothing we can do about it.  But we do not have to cede ground on the internet.  We can play the same game as they do and force them into defending themselves against outlandish attacks.

      Let's look at this from a personal stand point.  You do not know me except from the brief things you have read here at Dkos.  Let's say your boss and your neighbor and several of your family members knew something about me and told you what a bad guy I am.  Now, if one person said it, you might give me the benefit of the doubt but as more and more people you trust keep saying multiple things against me, you would soon develop a negative image regardless of whether you could verify any of it was true or not.  It is human nature.

      President Obama has been hammered nonstop for five years.  People cannot be expected to verify each and every one of these claims.  After awhile, people who do not pay careful attention simply give in to the constant barrage of negative slander.  Even if he was re-elceted, he has been rendered almost completely powerless (and that is assuming he wants to be more progressive).

      I do not believe that you can simply provide your side of the story over and over (even if your side is factually correct and their side is a blatant lie) and win this fight.

      "Perhaps the sentiments contained in the following pages, are not YET sufficiently fashionable to procure them general favour..."

      by Buckeye Nut Schell on Sun May 26, 2013 at 10:29:30 AM PDT

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      •  For the most part, I agree with you. My point, (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Buckeye Nut Schell, zooecium

        though, is to make it personal to the people you can reach.

        None of us can reach everyone.  None of us can reach everyone who disagrees with us.  But each of us can reach one or two or more people....who know us.

        That is my basic point.

        President Obama has been hammered for years.  Have you or I?

        If we questions our opponents on the basis of what they know about us, it can appeal both to logic and emotion.

        "You've known me well for ten (or more) years; do you really think I would back a candidate or position that would hurt my family or yours?"

        "I believe we are good people; why wouldn't we want to help those in need?  Like storm victims or people who got hosed even harder than we did when the banks broke the economy?"

        Yes, these are simple questions, but each of us can appeal to the facts and emotions of people we know well.  They, in turn, can be encouraged to do the same with others.  I firmly believe that if we treat others as though we know that we are all basically decent people who want to do good for ourselves and others...we can win.

        It's certainly worth trying, isn't it?

        We cannot call ourselves a civilised society if we refuse to protect the weakest among us.

        by The Marti on Sun May 26, 2013 at 11:21:01 AM PDT

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        •  I would add to The Marti side of the discussion (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Buckeye Nut Schell, The Marti

          Truth may not win the argument of the moment but it will win through the test of time.

          You receive a plethora of emails that run the gamut from subtle misquotes to outright lies. Many of us counter these with sourced corrections - to everyone listed on the email - and/or ask pointed questions of the kind that The Marti has given you in his comments.

          If our side continues to provide clear, documented, and sourced truths to counter the lies of the other side, and also asks pointed questions that clearly show the flaws in the other sides positions/arguments then we will make our converts.

          I would add that responding, to the types of emails that you have been receiving, in the way mentioned above has worked for me in one of two ways -
          Either they give me up as a lost cause, wonderful they stop sending me crap.
          Or they convert and join me in my campaign to inform senders/forwarders of the errors/BS/lies/propaganda inherent in those types of emails.

          Which ever response I get I usually end up more informed from doing the research and occasionally have the satisfaction of gaining a ally in the campaign to counter misinformation.
          -side note: I do this regardless of which side of the issue the misinformation is coming from.

          You can safely assume you have created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott

          by zooecium on Sun May 26, 2013 at 01:19:30 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thank you for your added clarity to my points. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            zooecium, Buckeye Nut Schell

            Responding to people with as much respect as we can muster, which I admit is often difficult, is an absolute 'win' for us!  

            The more reasoned we are, the more we appeal to positive emotions, the more successful we can be.

            Yes, there are those lost causes who simply refuse to treat us with any respect; we cannot reach them.  But think of how many people we can reach!

            As you say, each time we speak up we learn something, if we do it right.

            It's always better to try than to give up, isn't it?

            Marti
            p.s.  This Marti is a she.  :-)

            We cannot call ourselves a civilised society if we refuse to protect the weakest among us.

            by The Marti on Sun May 26, 2013 at 02:03:48 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Aaaarrrrrrgggghhhh (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Buckeye Nut Schell, The Marti

              My apologies for the gender mistake. I actually knew that. My two finger typing was trying so hard to catch up to my twenty finger brain - just goes to show that when you think you are thinking sometimes brain flatulence occurs.

              he did it ---->

              ;)

              You can safely assume you have created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott

              by zooecium on Sun May 26, 2013 at 02:28:55 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  :-D No worries...I get it often enough when folks (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                zooecium

                aren't sure which I am, or when they want to spell my name with a "y" on the end.  To which I often remark, "Do I really look like Ernest Borgnine to you??"

                They either get it right away, or wonder if I've lost my marbles.

                Besides, I soooo get the two finger typing vs. the twenty finger brain.  I proofread like mad, and still miss some of the most egregious mistakes.  

                My most classic error was when I tried typing, "Lord love a duck!!" in response to an IM.

                Let's just say I didn't type "duck".

                face/palm

                We cannot call ourselves a civilised society if we refuse to protect the weakest among us.

                by The Marti on Sun May 26, 2013 at 02:48:21 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  ... (3+ / 0-)

            I respond to the emails with corrections, and try to avoid sounding critical or negative.  I will say something like "Isn't it nice to find out that things are not as bad as we hear they are.  I looked up what you reported and found ....." and will give a link to a reliable source.

            Sadly, what happens is that I no longer get the emails from them, but also don't get accurate ones about what is really happening.  I know that they just take me off of the list and continue to send the crazy stuff to the people who love crazy hate stories and want to believe it.  It gives them a reason to hate the people they hate--justifies it in their minds.  They really believe it and don't want to hear that it isn't true.  

            •  What you forward reflects on you. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Buckeye Nut Schell

              I tried to let them know that what they sent reflected on them ... that people believed what was sent in part because it came from a trusted source ie. 'it came from zooecium, he is a bright guy who wouldn't BS me about something like this... no doubt he checked it out before he sent it so it's safe to send on.

              You can safely assume you have created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott

              by zooecium on Sun May 26, 2013 at 06:01:03 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

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