#### Comment Preferences

• ##### Gun Homicides would not include accidental(7+ / 0-)

gun deaths or suicides, right?

Another thing I have started doing this memorial day is to divide cumulative statistics into Sandy Hook units - 26.

So 11,101 gun homicides (not gun deaths) is 427 Sandy Hook units per year. 36 Sandy Hook units per month. A little over 1 Sandy Hook unit a day every day including summer, weekends, holidays, snow days, and teacher's workshop days.

But you may say the 11,101 were not all adorable. It's easier that way.

Why am I making this statistic so unbearable. Because we insist on forgiving sloppy gun handling as unavoidable. As in oopsie, you're not going to count this as a homicide are you. Haven't I suffered enough.

Get the 'oopsie' out of 'keep and bear arms' see GunFAIL and Gun Crazy diaries weekly.

• ##### Be careful when using statistics.(22+ / 0-)

You can fall into about a dozen different logical and mathematical fallacies and false proofs without even realizing it.  Here are some facts from the CDC.  2010 is the most recent year for which all the data are in final tabulated form:

Number of deaths for leading causes of death

Heart disease: 597,689
Cancer: 574,743
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 138,080
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 129,476
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 120,859
Alzheimer's disease: 83,494
Diabetes: 69,071
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 50,476
Influenza and Pneumonia: 50,097
Intentional self-harm (suicide): 38,364

Source: http://www.cdc.gov/...

Your 11,101 gun homicides equals exactly 0.0009468% of 1,172,429, which is the number of deaths from heart disease and cancer alone.  Many of the deaths from heart disease are preventable. Cancer is less preventable directly, but a massive effort could be made to reduce risk factors. Keep that figure in mind. Gun related homicides are 0.0009468% of the number of deaths from just the two leading causes of death in the US.

Rudeness is a weak imitation of strength. - Eric Hoffer

[ Parent ]

• ##### The relevant stat is what % of all homicides are(7+ / 0-)

gun homicides? Answer: about 66%, and, one of the worst rates of any developed nation.

• ##### The old deflection trick. Where is that one on the(4+ / 0-)

GUNHO game board?

Anyway, nothing you mention except gun deaths is caused by guns. Simple question, do more guns mean more gun deaths, or fewer? And plase explain.

There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

[ Parent ]

• ##### Mighty Morphin Power Rangers(6+ / 0-)

They think I am against death. I am against gun death.

20 Kindergartners and 6 teachers did not die suddenly on December 14 of Heart disease: 597,689

20 Kindergartners and 6 teachers did not die suddenly on December 14 of Cancer: 574,743

20 Kindergartners and 6 teachers did not die suddenly on December 14 of Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 138,080

20 Kindergartners and 6 teachers did not die suddenly on December 14 of Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 129,476

20 Kindergartners and 6 teachers did not die suddenly on December 14 of Accidents (unintentional injuries): 120,859

20 Kindergartners and 6 teachers did not die suddenly on December 14 of Alzheimer's disease: 83,494

20 Kindergartners and 6 teachers did not die suddenly on December 14 of Diabetes: 69,071

20 Kindergartners and 6 teachers did not die suddenly on December 14 of Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 50,476

20 Kindergartners and 6 teachers did not die suddenly on December 14 of Influenza and Pneumonia: 50,097

20 Kindergartners and 6 teachers did not die suddenly on December 14 of Intentional self-harm (suicide): 38,364

So guess these kindergartners and teachers were doomed. Gun safety is so time consuming and expensive. And it really wouldn't interest anybody outside of a small circle of friends. And guns are so fun, so some get a little sloppy with their guns, it's not that many. We can't do anything about it.

Get the 'oopsie' out of 'keep and bear arms' see GunFAIL and Gun Crazy diaries weekly.

[ Parent ]

• ##### Facts that don't happen to fit your narrative...(10+ / 0-)

...are not "deflection" -- at least, not by any meaningful definition of that word.

It would seem that you just refuse to ignore those facts that disprove your stance.

Not a particularly compelling form of argument on your part.  A meaningful stance would include all facts, not just those you happen to like.

Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

[ Parent ]

• ##### Which answers the question of(3+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
oldpotsmuggler, 88kathy, poco

whether or not more guns equals more gun deaths exactly how?

Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
~ Jerry Garcia

[ Parent ]

• ##### My view...(8+ / 0-)

...is that once one has been shown to ignore facts when they don't happen to fit their narrative, then their other questions are best ignored.

Now, since you are not the one who has shown himself willing to ignore those facts, then I'll answer the question as you posed it.

There is no indication that the number of guns in private hands has any measurable impact on deaths overall -- in other words, more guns does not lead to more violence, but neither do more guns lead to less violence.

I see no reasonable purpose to create a new category of "gun deaths" when the discussion is about death overall, except, perhaps, to add an emotional layer to the discussion to deflect it from the actual point.

You may disagree with that stance, and that's fine by me -- but you asked for my view and I have given it.

Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

[ Parent ]

• ##### I suggest you read the material at the Center for(3+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
oldpotsmuggler, 88kathy, poco

Gun Policy Research before making some unfounded claim that there is "no indication that the number of guns in private hands has any measurable impact on deaths overall".  Or perhaps the rigorous, peer reviewed facts presented there don't fit your narrative?

• ##### I don't find their assertions...(7+ / 0-)

...to be particularly compelling.  I find their methodology extremely suspect, their conclusions to not be supported by their premises, and their premises not to be wholly accurate in the first place.

Clearly, you believe otherwise.

I'll drop the subject of whether or not any particular advocacy group is believable right there, however -- it seems to be veering rather off-topic.

Perhaps a future discussion, focused intentionally on that point, would be more appropriate.

Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

[ Parent ]

• ##### question(6+ / 0-)

My view on that is if there are no guns there will be no gun deaths, more guns will equal some gun deaths. But, we aren't going to ban guns and so how do we minimize it effectively with in the law?

Banning scary looking guns won't do it.

"The scientific nature of the ordinary man is to go on out and do the best you can." John Prine

[ Parent ]

• ##### My crystal ball reads differently than yours. (1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
88kathy

Based only, of course, on the fcat that no one follows our model but ourselves.

There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

[ Parent ]

• ##### Keeping guns on a 24/7 basis by gun owners(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Lost and Found

would almost eliminate the GunFAIL and the Gun Crazy diaries. It would reduce them to a comment.

The path to eliminating the remaining gun deaths would be starkly clear once the easily eliminated deaths are gone.

Get the 'oopsie' out of 'keep and bear arms' see GunFAIL and Gun Crazy diaries weekly.

[ Parent ]

• ##### Banning ALL guns(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
poco, high uintas

Has never been something I consider to be a realistic answer. It just won't happen, as much as some people might want it to.

I do not share the view that ALL gun owners are extremists or irresponsible by default. I DO recognize, however, there are people that somehow manage, despite all kinds of safety training, to get others hurt or killed as a result of their mishandling of these weapons -- unfortunate, and often tragic, occurrences that would not have happened had there not been present a key component: the actual gun itself.

I also don't believe that reasonable compromise by way of adjustments to laws that would help keep guns in general, and the more "scary functioning" guns specifically, out of the wrong hands will automatically lead to guns being taken from everyone.

So I guess what leaves me scratching my head the most is why there appears to be so much resistance from many here (not necessarily meaning you, high uintas). It seems many would prefer to protect at all costs this "right" they perceive as being threatened, which to someone like me who generally keeps out of this debate, really doesn't appear all that threatened even WITH some reasonable restrictions.

Maybe this debate has just devolved to the "Obama Rox/Sux" level to such a degree that people now just automatically "disagree on sight," depending on the username, in which case the cyclical nature of the commentary that inevitably springs up in many of these gun-related diaries truly is an exercise in futility.

Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
~ Jerry Garcia

[ Parent ]

• ##### Sorry for the late reply(5+ / 0-)

To some degree I think it has devolved to rox/sux level. A lot of talking at cross purposes and angry denouncing, sad.

After Newtown there were a lot of angry cries to ban RKBA along with calls to ban guns or undo the 2nd Amendment. Of course we stood our ground, that doesn't mean that there is no room for agreement but we can't agree with those who believe that all guns are evil and so are their owners.

I try to remain on topic, don't always do it, and failed completely in this diary. I want there to be a reasonable agreement on background checks, magazines, and if there is to be an AWB it has to be sane. We have to try to stem the flow of illegal guns into violence prone parts of the country.

At the same time I want people to understand that the mere fact that guns exist is not the sole reason for the violence in this country. The guy who shot those children was sick, many of the people who commit gun crimes are sick or hopeless or trapped. It would help if we tried to address those problems along with guns.

Oh and no one can say we are mean and bullies and still call us names like The Posse or Gunnies and play their little Bingo games instead of at least addressing the opinions we put forward. That just pisses everyone off.

"The scientific nature of the ordinary man is to go on out and do the best you can." John Prine

[ Parent ]

• ##### No worries on the lateness, I knew you'd reply(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
high uintas

when you could.

I definitely think there's a spectrum upon which individual members of RBKA can be placed...from reasonable to completely uncompromising. It's the latter that seems to have gotten a stigma attached to the group as a whole.

In many respects, the same can be said for the gun control side, I admit.

Neither extreme will ever be able to reconcile their positions with the other. It's when the people who hold these extreme positions decide to derail reasonable diaries that I get irritated, personally.

Focussing on trivial technicalities, on the pro-gun side, or taking broad brush swipes at ALL gun owners, on the pro-control side, results only in exploding comment threads, effectively shutting down any otherwise meaningful discussion. Sadly, for some people, this appears to the goal in and of itself. On the rather infrequent occasions I decide to jump in, it's usually when I see someone using tactics I've seen used before that try to muddy up the comments with unimportant minutiae.

On the whole, though, this doesn't seem like a battle that will be decided on Daily Kos.

Besides, I'd rather focus all my attention on the Obama rox/sux war. That's where the REAL action is. ;-)

Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
~ Jerry Garcia

[ Parent ]

• ##### Please feel free to write the diary you prefer n/t(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
88kathy, poco

There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

[ Parent ]

• ##### Alternatively...(9+ / 0-)

...I'll simply express my opinions in published diaries -- which is kinda the whole point of having a comment option on diaries which are posted here.

If you don't want people to comment on your diaries, then I would suggest you publish them someplace where such commentary is not allowed at all.

Absent that, if you express your views here, you must be prepared for others to disagree with those views.

Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

[ Parent ]

• ##### Maybe someday some one will.(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
poco
Perhaps a future discussion, focused intentionally on that point, would be more appropriate.
OPS hasn't asked you to leave. He merely suggested you write a diary. A lot of people would take that as a compliment -- to be asked to write a diary based on a comment.

Don't get all huffy. Remember you are a guest in his diary as I am so clearly aware because of your citing of the site rules HERE

Get the 'oopsie' out of 'keep and bear arms' see GunFAIL and Gun Crazy diaries weekly.

[ Parent ]

• ##### So your answer to my question of "Bring on the (1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
88kathy

guns?" is "Yes, more guns?" Or do you just prefer to leave people guessing?

There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

[ Parent ]

• ##### Where did I say that?(4+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
KVoimakas, Wordsinthewind, ER Doc, ancblu
"Yes, more guns?"
Oh, wait -- I didn't.

Apparently, you'd rather reply to something I didn't say than to what I did say.

Seems pretty dishonest to me (quoting words that I did not say as if I did -- just want to be clear), but if that's all you've got...

Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

[ Parent ]

• ##### Did you not notice my question mark. Please feel(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
poco

free to comment on anything you like, but you ought to have the integrity to distinguish between a question and an allegation.

There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

[ Parent ]

• ##### Did you notice the quotation marks?(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
Wordsinthewind, ancblu

The ones I blockquoted?  The ones that you used, attributing to me a statement that I did not make?

You see, when you put words in quotation marks, that designates a quote -- something that someone actually said.

Therefore, you attributed to me a statement that I did not make.  That was a dishonest tactic on your part.

Feel free to try to explain it away as many different ways as you'd like, but trying to question my integrity because you falsely attributed to me a statement that I didn't make is quite a stretch -- and more than a bit ironic.

You're really not very good at this, are you?

Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

[ Parent ]

• ##### You took it out of context. Period.(0+ / 0-)

Anyway, Part Two is open. Thanks.

There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

[ Parent ]

• ##### You mean the context...(2+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
KVoimakas, Wordsinthewind

...in which you attributed to me a statement that I did not make and then were called on it?

I mean, that is the only reasonable context there was to that statement of yours.  The only pertinent context at all was that you were being directly and intentionally dishonest.

Again.

Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

[ Parent ]

• ##### But gun homicides are almost 70% of all(9+ / 0-)

homicides in the US.  Changing the subject by talking about deaths due to disease and cancer doesn't change the fact that we have an alarmingly high gun homicide rate in this country.

• ##### End the war on (some) drugs(19+ / 0-)

and the homicide rate will drop. Improve access to mental health care and it will drop even more.

There have been homicides since the beginning of time. People killed each other before the invention of gunpowder. Same with suicide. Take away one method and they will find another. The determined murderer or suicidal person will find a way to succeed one way or another.  I have seen way too many dead bodies in my lifetime to not be realistic about it.

Rudeness is a weak imitation of strength. - Eric Hoffer

[ Parent ]

• ##### Handle your guns safely and there will no longer(5+ / 0-)

be a GunFAIL or Gun Crazy diary. It will be reduced to a comment.

Stupid accidents are low hanging fruit. An easy fix before we move on to the more complicated issues.

Make it more difficult and less determined people will drop out of the mix. Make it easier and people will deal death on a whim.

Get the 'oopsie' out of 'keep and bear arms' see GunFAIL and Gun Crazy diaries weekly.

[ Parent ]

• ##### God, I'm sorry, you don't even do deflection well.(5+ / 0-)

You sound like your back in the seventies.

There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

[ Parent ]

• ##### He is so much more qualified to speak on this(7+ / 0-)

than you are that your comment becomes laughable.

"The scientific nature of the ordinary man is to go on out and do the best you can." John Prine

[ Parent ]

• ##### Maybe some day he will write a diary about it.(0+ / 0-)

Get the 'oopsie' out of 'keep and bear arms' see GunFAIL and Gun Crazy diaries weekly.

[ Parent ]

• ##### On suicide you are dead wrong. Suicide is an(7+ / 0-)

inherently impulsive action.  Studies related to suicide prevention show that simple things like selling Tylenol in smaller lots (see Britain) and putting high fences around bridges that are suicide magnets do indeed reduce suicide rates.

Furthermore, your claim that people will find other ways to kill just as effectively simply doesn't add up.  If it did, then all those countries with sane gun laws would have super high murder rates in other categories.  They don't.  The US murder rate outstrips all other industrialized countries, and most of that murder rate is thanks to guns.

• ##### Those countries have never had near the murder....(9+ / 0-)

rates that we have.  No matter what tool is used.

[ Parent ]

• ##### In the comparative study done in the 1980s....(10+ / 0-)

....between Seattle and Vancouver, BC, the murder and suicide rates by all means except guns were quite close. But Seattle had a vastly higher murder rate with guns. In other words, the easy availability of guns in Seattle resulted in a number of deaths that would not have happened if guns had not been so easily available.

"They smash your face in, and say you were always ugly." (Solzhenitsyn)

[ Parent ]

• ##### And if the Seattle(4+ / 0-)

firearm related homicide data followed the established U.S. pattern for other major urban areas, those homicides would involve predominantly a racial minority under-class that doesn't exist in Vancouver -- even today, let alone in the 1980's.

Drug and other crime related violence, and involving firearms, has certainly come to Canada generally and greater Vancouver specifically ... but when looking at the independent socio-economic variables correlating with U.S. urban firearm fatalities, the nature of U.S. and Canadian social under-privilege is qualitatively different.  I would suggest that the data likely reflect this with closer examination and study.

• ##### Even better. End the war on (ALL) drugs...(5+ / 0-)

...and switch the resources devoted to the current war into the medical and mental health treatment of addiction.

As if we needed any more proof that the War on Drugs is stupid, a Kennedy is supporting it.

[ Parent ]

• ##### Oh, I just did the math, you have two too many(4+ / 0-)

zeros in there. Also, did I mention that gun "MURDERS" are only a fraction of "GUN DEATHS".

So you misspoke yourself twice. Better luck next time.

There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

[ Parent ]

• ##### FTR: It's actually 9.468/10ths of a percent of...(13+ / 0-)

..the 1,172,429 deaths from heart disease and cancer, not 9.468/10000ths of a percent.

Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

[ Parent ]

• ##### I should not try to do math on 4 hours sleep(11+ / 0-)

Been going at it since before dawn and it is now well past midnight. I am out of here. I have a full day tomorrow.

My point is, when time, money and resources are limited, hard decisions must be made on allocation. Where and how do we prevent the most crime/deaths with what we have, and what is most likely to succeed. If you have a mortality incidence rate of less than one percent, what percent of resources should be put into it?

Rudeness is a weak imitation of strength. - Eric Hoffer

[ Parent ]

• ##### That, of course, is not an easy question...(9+ / 0-)

...to answer. But it's certainly fair to discuss whether some resources should be allotted to prevention of a 1% mortality category, say into the CDC's budget, which has been nearly zeroed out in that particular arena.

Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

[ Parent ]

• ##### What per cent of resources should be put into (5+ / 0-)

doing the wrong thing? More guns, more death, less guns less death. Incontrivertable.

There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

[ Parent ]

• ##### Petitio Principii n/t(4+ / 0-)

Rudeness is a weak imitation of strength. - Eric Hoffer

[ Parent ]

• ##### Um, no...(9+ / 0-)

There are more guns in private hands than ever, with concealed carry allowed almost everywhere in the country. Yet gun deaths continue to fall, as you noted in your diary.

You appear to be arguing against yourself...

"A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

[ Parent ]

• ##### Yes, as long as you continue to ignore the rest of(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
poco

humanity, and specifically the 14 other countires I listed. Funny how not one member of the posse has risen to the challenge of trying to discuss the one central fact that my entire diary is based on.

There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

[ Parent ]

• ##### 100% of the gun murders are murder. Zero per(4+ / 0-)

cent of the cancer and heart disease deaths are murder.

There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

[ Parent ]

• ##### Abuse of statistics 101(7+ / 0-)

Everybody has to die from something, and how long is it since you heard that someone died of "old age"?

If you are 97 years old, suffering from Alzheimers, and riddled with cancer, what does the doc put on the death certificate - cancer.

Your comment implicitly assumes that if you could cure cancer and heart disease, everyone would live forever, or until they were shot.

• ##### your math is way off....(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
dream weaver

11,101/1,172,429 is 0.94% or almost 1% of deaths from your larger number.  My college students struggle with percentages too.

The tragedy is the number of deaths of young people due to homicides.  Heart disease and cancer disproportionately strike older people.

You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

[ Parent ]

• ##### No-one has insisted on forgiving anything.(10+ / 0-)

You can stop that lie at any time.

[ Parent ]

• ##### It's doubtful that they will.(8+ / 0-)

Entirely too much of this argument is based entirely upon that lie -- it's too important for some to give it up.

I'm just not sure whether they are actually convinced that it is not a lie or if they simply don't care.

Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

[ Parent ]

• ##### Have you ever noticed that Kathy and I mostly(1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
poco

don't make the same arguments (bless her heart)?

There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

[ Parent ]

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