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  •  The old deflection trick. Where is that one on the (4+ / 0-)

    GUNHO game board?

    Anyway, nothing you mention except gun deaths is caused by guns. Simple question, do more guns mean more gun deaths, or fewer? And plase explain.

    There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

    by oldpotsmuggler on Mon May 27, 2013 at 08:58:42 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Mighty Morphin Power Rangers (6+ / 0-)

      They think I am against death. I am against gun death.

      20 Kindergartners and 6 teachers did not die suddenly on December 14 of Heart disease: 597,689

      20 Kindergartners and 6 teachers did not die suddenly on December 14 of Cancer: 574,743

      20 Kindergartners and 6 teachers did not die suddenly on December 14 of Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 138,080

      20 Kindergartners and 6 teachers did not die suddenly on December 14 of Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 129,476

      20 Kindergartners and 6 teachers did not die suddenly on December 14 of Accidents (unintentional injuries): 120,859

      20 Kindergartners and 6 teachers did not die suddenly on December 14 of Alzheimer's disease: 83,494

      20 Kindergartners and 6 teachers did not die suddenly on December 14 of Diabetes: 69,071

      20 Kindergartners and 6 teachers did not die suddenly on December 14 of Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 50,476

      20 Kindergartners and 6 teachers did not die suddenly on December 14 of Influenza and Pneumonia: 50,097

      20 Kindergartners and 6 teachers did not die suddenly on December 14 of Intentional self-harm (suicide): 38,364

      So guess these kindergartners and teachers were doomed. Gun safety is so time consuming and expensive. And it really wouldn't interest anybody outside of a small circle of friends. And guns are so fun, so some get a little sloppy with their guns, it's not that many. We can't do anything about it.

      Get the 'oopsie' out of 'keep and bear arms' see GunFAIL and Gun Crazy diaries weekly.

      by 88kathy on Mon May 27, 2013 at 09:12:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Facts that don't happen to fit your narrative... (10+ / 0-)

      ...are not "deflection" -- at least, not by any meaningful definition of that word.

      It would seem that you just refuse to ignore those facts that disprove your stance.

      Not a particularly compelling form of argument on your part.  A meaningful stance would include all facts, not just those you happen to like.

      Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

      by theatre goon on Tue May 28, 2013 at 03:52:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Which answers the question of (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        oldpotsmuggler, 88kathy, poco

        whether or not more guns equals more gun deaths exactly how?

        What's your view on that?




        Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
        ~ Jerry Garcia

        by DeadHead on Tue May 28, 2013 at 04:01:52 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  My view... (8+ / 0-)

          ...is that once one has been shown to ignore facts when they don't happen to fit their narrative, then their other questions are best ignored.

          Now, since you are not the one who has shown himself willing to ignore those facts, then I'll answer the question as you posed it.

          There is no indication that the number of guns in private hands has any measurable impact on deaths overall -- in other words, more guns does not lead to more violence, but neither do more guns lead to less violence.

          I see no reasonable purpose to create a new category of "gun deaths" when the discussion is about death overall, except, perhaps, to add an emotional layer to the discussion to deflect it from the actual point.

          You may disagree with that stance, and that's fine by me -- but you asked for my view and I have given it.

          Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

          by theatre goon on Tue May 28, 2013 at 04:50:50 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I suggest you read the material at the Center for (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            oldpotsmuggler, 88kathy, poco

            Gun Policy Research before making some unfounded claim that there is "no indication that the number of guns in private hands has any measurable impact on deaths overall".  Or perhaps the rigorous, peer reviewed facts presented there don't fit your narrative?

            •  I don't find their assertions... (7+ / 0-)

              ...to be particularly compelling.  I find their methodology extremely suspect, their conclusions to not be supported by their premises, and their premises not to be wholly accurate in the first place.

              Clearly, you believe otherwise.

              I'll drop the subject of whether or not any particular advocacy group is believable right there, however -- it seems to be veering rather off-topic.

              Perhaps a future discussion, focused intentionally on that point, would be more appropriate.

              Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

              by theatre goon on Tue May 28, 2013 at 06:15:21 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  question (6+ / 0-)

          My view on that is if there are no guns there will be no gun deaths, more guns will equal some gun deaths. But, we aren't going to ban guns and so how do we minimize it effectively with in the law?

          Banning scary looking guns won't do it.

          "The scientific nature of the ordinary man is to go on out and do the best you can." John Prine

          by high uintas on Tue May 28, 2013 at 09:04:03 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  My crystal ball reads differently than yours. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            88kathy

            Based only, of course, on the fcat that no one follows our model but ourselves.

            There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

            by oldpotsmuggler on Tue May 28, 2013 at 10:15:30 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Keeping guns on a 24/7 basis by gun owners (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Lost and Found

            would almost eliminate the GunFAIL and the Gun Crazy diaries. It would reduce them to a comment.

            The path to eliminating the remaining gun deaths would be starkly clear once the easily eliminated deaths are gone.

            Get the 'oopsie' out of 'keep and bear arms' see GunFAIL and Gun Crazy diaries weekly.

            by 88kathy on Tue May 28, 2013 at 10:17:13 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Banning ALL guns (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            poco, high uintas

            Has never been something I consider to be a realistic answer. It just won't happen, as much as some people might want it to.

            I do not share the view that ALL gun owners are extremists or irresponsible by default. I DO recognize, however, there are people that somehow manage, despite all kinds of safety training, to get others hurt or killed as a result of their mishandling of these weapons -- unfortunate, and often tragic, occurrences that would not have happened had there not been present a key component: the actual gun itself.

            I also don't believe that reasonable compromise by way of adjustments to laws that would help keep guns in general, and the more "scary functioning" guns specifically, out of the wrong hands will automatically lead to guns being taken from everyone.

            So I guess what leaves me scratching my head the most is why there appears to be so much resistance from many here (not necessarily meaning you, high uintas). It seems many would prefer to protect at all costs this "right" they perceive as being threatened, which to someone like me who generally keeps out of this debate, really doesn't appear all that threatened even WITH some reasonable restrictions.

            Maybe this debate has just devolved to the "Obama Rox/Sux" level to such a degree that people now just automatically "disagree on sight," depending on the username, in which case the cyclical nature of the commentary that inevitably springs up in many of these gun-related diaries truly is an exercise in futility.  




            Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
            ~ Jerry Garcia

            by DeadHead on Tue May 28, 2013 at 01:20:53 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Sorry for the late reply (5+ / 0-)

              To some degree I think it has devolved to rox/sux level. A lot of talking at cross purposes and angry denouncing, sad.

              After Newtown there were a lot of angry cries to ban RKBA along with calls to ban guns or undo the 2nd Amendment. Of course we stood our ground, that doesn't mean that there is no room for agreement but we can't agree with those who believe that all guns are evil and so are their owners.

              I try to remain on topic, don't always do it, and failed completely in this diary. I want there to be a reasonable agreement on background checks, magazines, and if there is to be an AWB it has to be sane. We have to try to stem the flow of illegal guns into violence prone parts of the country.

              At the same time I want people to understand that the mere fact that guns exist is not the sole reason for the violence in this country. The guy who shot those children was sick, many of the people who commit gun crimes are sick or hopeless or trapped. It would help if we tried to address those problems along with guns.

              Oh and no one can say we are mean and bullies and still call us names like The Posse or Gunnies and play their little Bingo games instead of at least addressing the opinions we put forward. That just pisses everyone off.

              "The scientific nature of the ordinary man is to go on out and do the best you can." John Prine

              by high uintas on Tue May 28, 2013 at 06:36:13 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  No worries on the lateness, I knew you'd reply (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                high uintas

                when you could.

                I definitely think there's a spectrum upon which individual members of RBKA can be placed...from reasonable to completely uncompromising. It's the latter that seems to have gotten a stigma attached to the group as a whole.

                In many respects, the same can be said for the gun control side, I admit.

                Neither extreme will ever be able to reconcile their positions with the other. It's when the people who hold these extreme positions decide to derail reasonable diaries that I get irritated, personally.

                Focussing on trivial technicalities, on the pro-gun side, or taking broad brush swipes at ALL gun owners, on the pro-control side, results only in exploding comment threads, effectively shutting down any otherwise meaningful discussion. Sadly, for some people, this appears to the goal in and of itself. On the rather infrequent occasions I decide to jump in, it's usually when I see someone using tactics I've seen used before that try to muddy up the comments with unimportant minutiae.

                On the whole, though, this doesn't seem like a battle that will be decided on Daily Kos.

                Besides, I'd rather focus all my attention on the Obama rox/sux war. That's where the REAL action is. ;-)




                Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
                ~ Jerry Garcia

                by DeadHead on Tue May 28, 2013 at 11:01:32 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  Please feel free to write the diary you prefer n/t (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        88kathy, poco

        There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

        by oldpotsmuggler on Tue May 28, 2013 at 04:55:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Alternatively... (9+ / 0-)

          ...I'll simply express my opinions in published diaries -- which is kinda the whole point of having a comment option on diaries which are posted here.

          If you don't want people to comment on your diaries, then I would suggest you publish them someplace where such commentary is not allowed at all.

          Absent that, if you express your views here, you must be prepared for others to disagree with those views.

          Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

          by theatre goon on Tue May 28, 2013 at 06:11:06 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Maybe someday some one will. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            poco
            Perhaps a future discussion, focused intentionally on that point, would be more appropriate.
            OPS hasn't asked you to leave. He merely suggested you write a diary. A lot of people would take that as a compliment -- to be asked to write a diary based on a comment.  

            Don't get all huffy. Remember you are a guest in his diary as I am so clearly aware because of your citing of the site rules HERE

            Get the 'oopsie' out of 'keep and bear arms' see GunFAIL and Gun Crazy diaries weekly.

            by 88kathy on Tue May 28, 2013 at 10:25:02 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  So your answer to my question of "Bring on the (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            88kathy

            guns?" is "Yes, more guns?" Or do you just prefer to leave people guessing?

            There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

            by oldpotsmuggler on Tue May 28, 2013 at 10:27:51 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Where did I say that? (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              KVoimakas, Wordsinthewind, ER Doc, ancblu
              "Yes, more guns?"
              Oh, wait -- I didn't.

              Apparently, you'd rather reply to something I didn't say than to what I did say.

              Seems pretty dishonest to me (quoting words that I did not say as if I did -- just want to be clear), but if that's all you've got...

              Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

              by theatre goon on Tue May 28, 2013 at 10:56:19 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Did you not notice my question mark. Please feel (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                poco

                free to comment on anything you like, but you ought to have the integrity to distinguish between a question and an allegation.

                There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

                by oldpotsmuggler on Tue May 28, 2013 at 12:59:23 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Did you notice the quotation marks? (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Wordsinthewind, ancblu

                  The ones I blockquoted?  The ones that you used, attributing to me a statement that I did not make?

                  You see, when you put words in quotation marks, that designates a quote -- something that someone actually said.

                  Therefore, you attributed to me a statement that I did not make.  That was a dishonest tactic on your part.

                  Feel free to try to explain it away as many different ways as you'd like, but trying to question my integrity because you falsely attributed to me a statement that I didn't make is quite a stretch -- and more than a bit ironic.

                  You're really not very good at this, are you?

                  Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

                  by theatre goon on Tue May 28, 2013 at 01:35:25 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You took it out of context. Period. (0+ / 0-)

                    Anyway, Part Two is open. Thanks.

                    There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

                    by oldpotsmuggler on Tue May 28, 2013 at 07:37:36 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You mean the context... (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      KVoimakas, Wordsinthewind

                      ...in which you attributed to me a statement that I did not make and then were called on it?

                      I mean, that is the only reasonable context there was to that statement of yours.  The only pertinent context at all was that you were being directly and intentionally dishonest.

                      Again.

                      Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

                      by theatre goon on Wed May 29, 2013 at 04:15:58 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

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