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View Diary: Islam 101: Sawm (157 comments)

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  •  I've often felt the same (6+ / 0-)

    about similarities between Judaism and Islam.  I was thinking of that point in the Talmud too -- where one rabbi says that dawn is the point where you can distinguish between blue and white, and another says it's where you can distinguish between blue and green.

    •  What I'd like to see is a world (0+ / 0-)

      where what the rabbis say about "dawn" has been left aside, and the scientific explanation for dawn is embraced.

      Besides, what if one of those rabbis was color blind and the followers based their whole dawn theology on his vision?

      •  Because apparently (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JDsg, poco, alain2112, TrueBlueMajority

        it's insufficiently scientific to say "this is how you can determine for yourself, through observation, whether or not there is enough light for it to be considered daytime".

        •  No, you said that there were two suggested ways (0+ / 0-)

          to tell what the point of dawn was from two people of the same religion who apparently didn't agree on what to look for.

          •  And both of those ways, as applied, (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            a gilas girl, poco, SchuyH, JDsg, alain2112

            involved requiring the individual to measure observable facts and make a determination based on what can be observed.

            Their disagreement is on the definition of "dawn," not on the method for determining it.

            •  I just checked several definitions of dawn (0+ / 0-)

              and none of them said anything about blue/white/green cloth being used to either define it or measure it.

              And what about the possible color blind rabbi?

              •  Imagine that: people have come up (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                alain2112, SchuyH, JDsg, Oh Mary Oh

                with forms of ambient-light measurement that you've never seen before.

                And honestly, I thought you were joking about the color-blind rabbi.  That's too stupid a suggestion to take seriously.

                •  Levity is often usful when discussing religious (0+ / 0-)

                  ideas. If you are a person of faith reading the Talmud and you come across the two rabbis' take on how to determine, measure, observe the point of dawn, which guy's info do you use?

                  •  I know that one of the most irreverant, (7+ / 0-)

                    joking, take-the-mickey-out-of-yourself place is the parish house of an Anglican church.

                    You attach too much "piety" to religious people. You see the ones you want to see, it seems.

                    Stop trying to convert people. You wouldn't like it if I did it, and I certainly don't like your approach. I don't think I speak in a vacuum either on that subject.

                    I resent that. I demand snark, and overly so -- Markos Moulitsas.

                    by commonmass on Thu May 30, 2013 at 11:55:28 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Simple: (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    poco, JDsg, Batya the Toon, Oh Mary Oh

                    You get the two rabbis together at dusk, tell them they need to get this sorted out, and it'll be dawn by the time they're done arguing.  Maybe not dawn of the immediately next day, but... ;)

                    Seriously, though, 'Dawn' is such a wishy-washy time-definition anyway.  Look at the definitions for nautical, civil, and ... shoot, there was another one, of twilight.  You've got the same problem -- a gradual fade with no defining moment.  You can't use 'the moment the sun comes over the horizon', because if you live in the shadow of mountains to the east -- or in a city or forested area where there effectively is no horizon -- your dawn is going to be much later and lighter than someone who lives on a plain.  Depending on stars being visible isn't viable if it's overcast -- and then, you have the question: "Well, are the planets considered stars for these purposes?"

                    The blue-white and blue-green thread color tests are actually rather more valid because they depend not so much on the intensity of light but upon its CRI -- its color rendition index -- which is more a variable of the angle of the sun's illumination than of the actual amount of illumination, once you get past a certain point.  Very early dawn is pretty much pure blue light, and thus it'd be very hard to tell white from blue or blue from green.  As time passes, however, the light will incorporate more of the rest of the spectrum, allowing for the perception of difference in color.

                •  I find that levity often helps in conversations (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Navy Vet Terp

                  about religious beliefs.  So if you are person reading the Talmud and come across the two rabbis' takes on the definition of dawn, which do you go with?

                  •  Either the eventual rabbinical consensus (5+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    poco, commonmass, Navy Vet Terp, SchuyH, JDsg

                    or your personal tradition, generally.  The conclusions of the Talmud have been summarized in other volumes for practical use.

                    (You seem to be having some double-posting problems, incidentally.  Are both of those displaying on your screen?)

                  •  And it's really not the definition of dawn (5+ / 0-)

                    It's when you can don your tefillan and talit and begin the morning prayer.  Ideally, the point in the morning prayer when you say:  

                    Praised are you Lord our God, Rular of the Universe, Who creates light and fashions darkness, ordaining the order of all the creation
                    should be said after the sun has risen - the very pious try to reach this point just at the precise moment of sunrise.

                    In point of fact Congress delaying standard time until November really messed up a number of observant Jews who pray daily, as playing with the date we "fall back" with the clocks delayed sunrise in late October and early November until well after 7, when the worshippers have to be at work or at least commuting to work.  So the reality is that at that time of year morning prayers are said well before it has started to become light.

                    "We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals, now we know that it is bad economics." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Jan. 20, 1937

                    by Navy Vet Terp on Thu May 30, 2013 at 01:03:30 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  Talmud= rabbis disagreeing about everyhing (7+ / 0-)

            Over 6,200 pages of the standard Wilna edition of the Talmud and from beginning to end it is nothing but one rabbi disagreeing with another.  Sometimes they apparently argued in the same academy, other times they were generations removed.  You read the text and try to understand where each was coming from.  All this began before the time of Jesus, when Hillel and Shammai argued and agreed on just about nothing, and continued on for the next five centuries.  In fact, we are still arguing today.

            Sorry if this doesn't jive with your preconceived stereotypes of what every religious faith is supposed to have.

            And thanks Batya, that was one disagreement I didn't know about.

            "We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals, now we know that it is bad economics." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Jan. 20, 1937

            by Navy Vet Terp on Thu May 30, 2013 at 11:41:13 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

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