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View Diary: Islam 101: Sawm (157 comments)

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  •  Do you really think that... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    poco, SchuyH, JDsg

    systemic misunderstandings and misrepresentations of Islam have no bearing on current political and cultural events and processes?

    Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. (Terry Pratchett)

    by angry marmot on Fri May 31, 2013 at 12:13:38 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  How does this diary dispell those notions? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Fishtroller01

      What misunderstanding or misrepresentation of Islam are addressed by this diary? That Muslims fast during Ramadan is not a shocker.

      •  OK... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        poco, SchuyH, JDsg

        Look at the arc of JDsg's series on the Five Pillars. In my opinion, what JDsg is doing is providing information on some of the fundamental beliefs and practices of Islam, something I consider useful and relevant. If the diaries engender deeper discussion (and some do) and above all if they spark interest in a reader who then follows up with other readings, here or elsewhere, then perhaps we can start to dismantle the dominant discourse in American political culture vis-a-vis Islam.

        As to your top-level comment about whether such diaries/discussions have a place here, do recall that kos himself was involved in setting up Street Prophets. Don't like diaries dealing with religion? Then it's pretty simple: don't read them. There's stuff here I don't like, and it's easy enough to ignore.

        Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. (Terry Pratchett)

        by angry marmot on Fri May 31, 2013 at 01:34:43 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Diaries re: Religion (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Fishtroller01

          Point taken and my original post was a bit of a teaser to get this discussion going. I do like diaries on religion and I like commenting on them. There is a need to 'dismantle the dominant discourse in American political culture vis-a-vis Islam', but that cuts both ways. To dispel the notion that there's no such thing as a moderate Muslim, but to also discuss the current state of Islam vis-a-vis woman rights, gay rights and my favorite, freedom of religion (or freedom from religion).  So I welcome diaries on religion, but simply articulating the practices of Islam does nothing to further that discussion and any attempt to discuss and criticize those practices is labelled as bigotry.

          •  Well, you probably won't like this... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JDsg, poco

            but my advice for you, if you want to discuss specific issues, is to pen a diary and host that discussion.

            Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. (Terry Pratchett)

            by angry marmot on Sat Jun 01, 2013 at 04:51:13 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Vevele-And as I brought up before... (0+ / 0-)

            a description of the practices of Islam will always be very incomplete because of the variation of practices and even basic tenets, which swing wildly from the former practices of someone like Ayaan Hirsi Ali and a moderate/liberal Muslim in the US.

            This is just like having a fundamentalist Christian and a liberal Christian describing what Christianity is all about or a Catholic or a Protestant doing the same.  

            As I said before, the reason for this is because the texts of all these Abrahamic based faiths are totally contradictory and back up both sides and all sides. The only way to operate withing these texts is to cherry pick what you like and fits your personal sense of morality and ignore the rest.  I really think that the basic problem that mankind has had and what continues to sew strife and hatred and unresolvable discussions in religion is those texts.

          •  There hasn't been any attempt in these comments (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JDsg

            to discuss and criticize those practices that has been labeled bigotry.

            What's been (rightly) smacked down is attempts to  trivialize and demonize these practices on the grounds that they are religious and all religion is bad.

            •  Calling it bigotry by anoother name (0+ / 0-)

              Discussions of Women's rights, gay rights and freedom of religion are not 'trivial'. Nor are they an attempt to 'demonize' religion when those religions engage in practices that are inimical to those rights. Sam Harris was recently labelled an Islamophobic for engaging in these discussions On “Islamophobia” and Other Libels.

              •  Please reread my comment and try again. (0+ / 0-)

                While nothing in your reply is false, it bears no connection to what I said.

                •  Comment reread (0+ / 0-)

                  I suppose you were commenting on my statement that "any attempt to discuss and criticize those practices is labelled as bigotry". I'll give you the benefit of the doubt; the word 'bigotry' may not have been used anywhere in these threads. My apologies for implying that they were. I was (perhaps over-) reacting to the larger sphere of discourse where, as I noted in my prior reply, criticism of Islam is equated with Islamophobia (clearly, a form of bigotry).        

                  •  I take that back (0+ / 0-)

                    OK - I have read some of the other threads and, while I don't see the work 'bigot', I do see the word 'asshole' being used more than once. I am an atheist. When confronted with religious dogma, I feel compelled to challenge that dogma because I feel that it's dangerous to life and liberty on this planet. I place the burden on the proponents of that dogma to defend it's veracity and why the practice should continue (at least in its current form). I accept the criticism of those that tell me to 'lighten up',  that this is educational, that people are genuinely interested in religion and that DK is an appropriate place for a discussion of those practices. Fair enough. But there is a fair amount of hostility coming back. I guess the good news (for me) is that we live in a time and place where my comments won't get me killed (as long as I remain anonymous).

                    •  I appreciate your position. (0+ / 0-)

                      If it helps at all, as a religious person who is also a member of a minority religion, I am vehemently against the imposition of any religious dogma or practice on anyone who does not choose to accept it upon themselves.  I'm as invested as you are in making sure that people who don't buy into the majority dogma can be safe in their dissent.

                      (I also think that in this thread in particular, you may have gotten some spillover hostility in reaction to another commenter, who has been expressing some of the same opinions in a considerably more trollish manner.  Sorry about that.)

                  •  Actually, no (0+ / 0-)

                    I was commenting on this:

                    Discussions of Women's rights, gay rights and freedom of religion are not 'trivial'.
                    I was not calling any of those things trivial, and neither was anybody else.

                    I was pointing out that people in this thread have been making comments trivializing and mocking specific religious practices that have nothing to do with the above-mentioned things.

        •  Street Prophets (0+ / 0-)

          By the way; from the Street Prophets mission statement: "Street Prophets is the forum that mobilizes progressive people of faith to name, discuss and take action on critical political and religious issues." I wish that this diary did just that. Instead it is simply (in your words) providing information on some of the fundamental beliefs and practices of Islam". This is my original point. Is DK the appropriate place for the spread of religious dogma and if so, why? Sure I can ignore it (but that would be no fun).

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