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View Diary: Spark: Agitating For Uprising - Breaking The Mental Bondage (62 comments)

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  •  as long as people... (5+ / 0-)

    can afford a new iphone every two years your revolution is not going to happen. The majority of the population has to be uncomfortable for a bit before they start throwing bricks.

    I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

    by jbou on Thu Jun 06, 2013 at 03:38:51 PM PDT

    •  Wow, wow, who's talking about bricks? I would (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      MrJayTee

      never advocate for anything dangerous or illegal.

      •  Revolutions... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AoT, slowbutsure, swampyankee

        are not orderly. Shit gets broken and rebuilt. You're trying to do have your cake and eat it too. It takes a real threat of violence to get the elite to give some back to the masses. The threat of socialism in Europe and the worker revolts in this country led to some of the New Deal legislation. People needed appeasing the elites had gotten greedy and the people were just uncomfortable enough to turn violent. Those factors led to real reform. Same with the civil rights movement. MLK is not embraced by folks unless Malcolm and the Panthers aren't a threat.

        I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

        by jbou on Thu Jun 06, 2013 at 03:49:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  *are a threat. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          slowbutsure, swampyankee

          I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

          by jbou on Thu Jun 06, 2013 at 04:03:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Yes, I know the script we've been programmed to (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          MrJayTee, isabelle hayes

          repeat over and over.  

          Any allusion by anybody about organized resistance against the corporate state is immediately met with a knee-jerk reaction as to all the reasons why it won't work, as to how dangerous it is, as to the futility of even attempting it.

          Yes, it is true that the elites only understand power, but the projection of power doesn't necessarily mean aimlessly throwing bricks.

          What these fascist parasites fear the most is people becoming highly organized.

          Ultimately whether there is violence or not will depend on the level of brutality and oppression the rising fascist corporate state is willing to impose on the people.

          If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightning.
          They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters. This struggle may be a moral one; or it may be a physical one; or it may be both moral and physical; but it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. Find out just what a people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both.

          The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress. Men may not get all they pay for in this world; but they must pay for all they get. If we ever get free from all the oppressions and wrongs heaped upon us, we must pay for their removal. We must do this by labor, by suffering, by sacrifice, and, if needs be, by our lives, and the lives of others.

          - Frederick Douglass

          •  elites aren't worried... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            swampyankee

            about organization, they fear getting lined up against the wall and shot like the elites were during past revolutions. I want an example of an organized peaceful revolution that led to real substantial change. Because there are quite a few examples of the violent kind leading to change.

            I am not hear to piss in your cereal, work for change, work to get bills passed and people elected who will vote for things you want, but don't fool yourself into thinking you can overcome a massive infrastructure of propaganda without your own massive propaganda machine. There's not a righteous truth that will spark some sort of peaceful enlightenment that leads to change. For the most part people are dull bulbs who need instructions(like don't swallow on a shampoo bottle) and if they can't handle shampoo how do you expect them to deal with the "truth"?

            I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

            by jbou on Thu Jun 06, 2013 at 05:57:35 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I reject that. I do participate in the sham (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              MrJayTee

              democracy we have; I vote (never missed an election); I've attended several political rallies, and town-hall meetings with my local Congressman, etc.

              Remember not to long ago there were hundreds of Occupy encampments across this country, and the world?

              I remember ten years ago when I used to advocate for that type of protest movement, people would have the same reaction as yours.

              Is always like that.  The next uprising is going to be ten time bigger than Occupy ever was, and that's dictated by the circumstances.

              When it happens, I'll write a "told-you-so" diary.

              •  sure (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                swampyankee

                Occupy was a nice vacation for the righteous. It was sleep away camp for people who longed for the sixties. But it led to nothing of substance. Bankers on Wall Street have gone unpunished and we still have Wall Street controlling our economy with their gambling addiction.

                I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

                by jbou on Thu Jun 06, 2013 at 06:31:45 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  It was a test run and the fact that (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  jbou

                  It went as well as it did, lasted as long as it do, and motivated as many people as it did was a good sign for next time. We learned lessons. Watching what's going on in turkey right now is a learning experience as well.

                  I agree with you mostly about what it will look like. There's already people throwing bricks through windows, if there is a much bigger movement there will be more of that. People really ignore what actually happened in Egypt. Liberals and progressives most of all.

                  If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

                  by AoT on Thu Jun 06, 2013 at 08:46:57 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  revolutions are ugly (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    AoT, swampyankee

                    You're destroying something and putting something else in its place, and there's always that chance that the new people will suck in a whole different way then the old one sucked. I am an old school anti interventionist. I like having the nukes and have no desire to spread "democracy" anywhere.

                    I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

                    by jbou on Thu Jun 06, 2013 at 08:54:59 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  and if Occupy actually turns into a mass movement (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    swampyankee, AoT

                    and leads to Wall Street executives going to prison then I will gladly munch on my words, the NSA will have them on ice waiting for me.

                    I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

                    by jbou on Thu Jun 06, 2013 at 08:56:23 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  More likely at this point (0+ / 0-)

                      That the bankers will be assassinated. At least some of them. There's just no way you can cause that much suffering and get away with it with absolutely no consequences in a country with as many guns as we have. They may not all get shot, but we can't be so oppressed as a country that one of our crazies won't at least try it

                      If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

                      by AoT on Thu Jun 06, 2013 at 09:06:25 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

      •  The sad fact that you've had repeatedly (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Ray Pensador, isabelle hayes

        To clarify that when you say "revolution" you don't mean violent revolution shows the necessity of "breaking the mental bondage".  People cannot do what they cannot imagine; Americans are well trained not to imagine revolution in anything like hopeful terms, including the good (well trained) American liberals here.

        Thanks for this diary.  I know I don't need to tell you this, but keep pushing!

        A slower bleed-out is not a sustainable value.

        by MrJayTee on Thu Jun 06, 2013 at 05:24:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That's an apt observation. By now I've determined (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          MrJayTee, isabelle hayes

          that that typical knee-jerk reaction to any allusion of organized (peaceful) resistance against the rising proto-fascist corporate state is the result of an Orwellian-type mind control due to being exposed to the most powerful and effective propaganda machine the world has ever known: The U.S. media conglomerate.

          Yes, we'll keep pushing...

        •  because like the Unicorn... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          swampyankee

          your hopeful revolution never has shown its face.

          I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

          by jbou on Thu Jun 06, 2013 at 05:59:06 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  So? (0+ / 0-)

            A slower bleed-out is not a sustainable value.

            by MrJayTee on Thu Jun 06, 2013 at 06:00:55 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Oh, and false. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Ray Pensador, isabelle hayes

            East Germany.

            Hungary.

            Czechoslovakia.

            The People Power Revolution in the Philippines.  

            All revolutions against authoritarian regimes and virtually bloodless.

            Not only is it possible, it has been done, and not long ago.

            Liberate your mind!

            A slower bleed-out is not a sustainable value.

            by MrJayTee on Thu Jun 06, 2013 at 06:11:54 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  links to all of these (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              swampyankee

              Because communism crumpled. It was no revolution, it died under its own weight. East Germany and the rest of the Eastern bloc fell because they lacked Soviet support. This was no people powered revolution. I want to read about the Philippines because that country is currently a violent mess. 70% of their population carries guns and politicians get shot and roll with their own militias.

              I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

              by jbou on Thu Jun 06, 2013 at 06:19:38 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Look, chief (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Ray Pensador, isabelle hayes

                Do whatever you need to get through the night, but the fact is the people of the Philippines brought about a peaceful revolution.  The Marcos dictatorship fell because people went into the streets and refused to accept less.  Are you saying they should have continued to live under dictatorship because their current society is flawed?  

                Some of us believe a flawed but real democracy, unlike the sham we have today, is better than dictatorship.

                In Eastern Europe, the local Communist parties still held power and had to give it up in the face of never ending demonstrations, demonstrations that would not end because the people refused to take no for an answer.

                Crumpled?  What crap.  Are you saying the people of these countries just waved their little fingers and the Communists ran?  Thousands of people risked their lives, but their governments understood the people would not be stopped.  The armies of all those countries were well armed and could easily have crushed the demonstrations.

                Lose the fear.

                Liberate.  Your.  Mind.

                A slower bleed-out is not a sustainable value.

                by MrJayTee on Thu Jun 06, 2013 at 06:37:54 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  enough with the hippie new age... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  swampyankee

                  consultant talk.  Stop idealizing stuff. There's nothing more annoying then people who don't deal in fact.

                  You said the Philippines had a non violent revolution, the facts say that 70% of their population carries guns and that their politicians have their own militias. It sounds like they are in the middle of a violent revolution.

                  I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

                  by jbou on Thu Jun 06, 2013 at 06:50:17 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Speaking of not dealing in fact... (0+ / 0-)

                    In spite of poverty and inequality, the Philippines seems to be holding it together, militias or no.

                    According to the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime figures shown here the muder rate in the Philippines is 5.4 per 100,000, below the Southeast Asia rate of 6.0. and not much higher than than the 4.8 rate for the wealthy USA, and much lower than, for example, Puerto Rico, with a rate of 26.2.

                    Do you think the people of the Philippines would rather go back to the Marcos dictatorship?

                    Did or did not the people of the Philippines  peacefully force the Marcos dictatorship to fall in 1986?  

                    Is or is not a flawed democracy better than a dictatorship?

                    Liberate your mind.

                    A slower bleed-out is not a sustainable value.

                    by MrJayTee on Thu Jun 06, 2013 at 07:38:24 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  sure... (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      swampyankee

                      hold onto that notion. The military coup led to the downfall of Marcos. Plus the economy went to shit. Once that happened he was no longer popular. But the thought of the nuns stopping tanks makes folks like you warm inside.

                      You can give up hope, it's quite freeing and allows you to deal with things as they are.  

                      I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

                      by jbou on Thu Jun 06, 2013 at 07:55:44 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  No, the military abandoned Marcos. (0+ / 0-)

                        And supported Aquino, who had won a previous election over Marcos and had overwhelming public support.  That's hardly the same as a coup.

                        As for giving up hope, no.  Not for you, not for me, not for this country.  I hope one day you will overcome whatever it is that is holding you down.  You deserve better.  

                        We all do.

                        A slower bleed-out is not a sustainable value.

                        by MrJayTee on Thu Jun 06, 2013 at 08:21:41 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                •  All those revolutions resulted in (0+ / 0-)

                  Neoliberal regimes. All of them. I don't consider that a victory at all.

                  If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

                  by AoT on Thu Jun 06, 2013 at 08:56:43 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Really? (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    isabelle hayes

                    Every Eastern Bloc communist dictatorship but Romania was non-violently overthrown...but that wasn't a victory?  It might not have been a victory over capitalism, but it was surely a victory over a violent dictatorial perversion of socialism.  Nobody but Fukuyama said it was the end of history.  

                    I look at this as an historical process that proceeds in stages.  Our task now is to stage our own revolution from neo-liberalism to democracy.  We have to keep pushing no matter how long it takes.

                    Do you think they shouldn't have bothered?  I do.  And we should keep bothering.

                    A slower bleed-out is not a sustainable value.

                    by MrJayTee on Thu Jun 06, 2013 at 09:36:02 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  The form of the revolution affects (0+ / 0-)

                      what the results are. Saying that the sort of revolution that got us to neoliberalism will get us out of it is just wrong.

                      I look at this as an historical process that proceeds in stages.
                      I think that is simply a matter of what people want to be true. It's part of the myth of progress. Neoliberalism was a step backward, not a step forward toward a better future. At best it was a step sideways to a different sort of economic oppression.

                      If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

                      by AoT on Fri Jun 07, 2013 at 08:48:10 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

    •  I tipped for the two-year new phone, not the (0+ / 0-)

      throwing of bricks.  But I didn't take it that you meant that action literally, the latter I mean.

      •  I did mean it literally (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AoT

        If people get uncomfortable for a long enough period of time they will throw bricks and all the calls for peaceful change aren't going to mean a thing to the hungry people searching for the life they once had.

        I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

        by jbou on Thu Jun 06, 2013 at 05:19:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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