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View Diary: Choose: Total Security in a Police State or Democracy And Freedom (276 comments)

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  •  We've evaded nothing (3+ / 0-)

    We have that conversation on a regular basis, and the politicians stroll lithely by ignoring it. We elected a president who said he was going to roll these privacy violations back. That's not just outrage, that's action.

    If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

    by AoT on Fri Jun 07, 2013 at 09:26:00 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  No we don't. We natter on about (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AoT, Charles CurtisStanley

      the Constitution and Democracy and our right to privacy, we never talk about the consequences of embracing those things strongly and taking the chance we'll be subjected to more 9/11s.  

      I got into shitloads of trouble on Twitter when I asked if people were willing to die for their right to privacy.  It was seen as a threat, that I was willing to kill someone for supporting the Constitution.  That's how nuts this fucking country is.  We can't even TALK about reality, we just whine about how things aren't going the way we think they should.

      I've had 4 people on this fucking blog resort to their favorite Clap Louder type responses without once noticing that I was actually asking for action to repeal the Patriot Act.  We don't even listen to each other, why should the rest of the country give a shit what we think?  

      Here's another thought.  I believe Obama when he says this is legal, and limited.  Of course it's legal, we knew that when the Patriot Act was passed.  I believe he's limited access to that databank, that it's being used to track terrorism and to help uncover potentially violent acts against this country.

      So here's the question.  Are we willing to give him the political cover he needs in order to ditch the Patriot Act?  Are we willing to accept that some of us will likely die or be injured if we fully embrace our right to privacy?  Are we willing to talk about those losses as the price we're willing to pay for living in a healthy Democracy?  This truly is what this all boils down to.  I'd hate to be the President of this country.  We're living in a world of uncertainty, our values demand that we fight genocide but how do we do that without being at war in every corner of the world?  Our values are based in a belief that we should be free of undue government interference, how do we square that with wanting a government that can protect us from hate groups of all persuasions?  Where are the lines?  Does freedom of religion include Dominionists who want to control the government and force all of us to embrace their beliefs?  Does the 2nd Amendment RKBA really usurp my right to not be shot in a movie theater or my living room?  

      None of this is simple stuff.  And we avoid the complicated as much as we possibly can, because there are no clean, clear answers, it's all gray areas and shifting ground.    

      I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

      by I love OCD on Fri Jun 07, 2013 at 10:51:34 AM PDT

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      •  We're clearly willing to die at a much (3+ / 0-)

        higher rate for our addiction to cars, so I have no problem with a theoretical rise in terrorist incidents that would go along with a restriction of the surveillance state. If there would even be a significant rise.

        I believe Obama when he says this is legal, and limited.  Of course it's legal, we knew that when the Patriot Act was passed.  I believe he's limited access to that databank, that it's being used to track terrorism and to help uncover potentially violent acts against this country.
        Legal, sure, limited, I suppose. I mean, not everyone has access to everything, we can thank Manning for that. But really, limited to me means that there needs to be due process, and not just some bureaucratic paperwork to fill out and get stamped.

        And this whole "It's a dangerous world" bit is so overblown. We don't need to be worrying about people coming here and bombing us, we need to be worrying about oppression here at home. Where the hell is the war against rape? Where is the war against racism? Instead we get the war on terror and on drugs, both of which have been terribly counter-productive. We've fucked up royally. We don't really care about stopping genocide, we care about pursuing our interests. Watching Obama and Romney debate Syria and how they were going to support the people who agreed with us made that perfectly clear. We don't want anyone to be free unless that means they'll choose to be on our side. That's where all this terrorism comes from.

        We aren't doing anything to prevent terrorism, we're just monitoring people so we can figure out who did it after the fact. Until that changes we'll continue to be in danger.

        If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

        by AoT on Fri Jun 07, 2013 at 11:12:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'd suggest you not mention (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AoT

          that it's not a dangerous world to the majority of people who live in it.  Of course there are dangers, and I'm grateful we at least have a President who doesn't involve us in combat in countries that are fighting religious wars that date back centuries.  Syria may have started with a goal of freedom from a dictator, it's now fighting Shia against Sunni, just like Iraq and Lebanon and everywhere else in the world that's still venerating ancient religions and ancient grudges.

          That's the cause of terrorism.  Why aren't we fighting rape?  Because women are still property, we just won the right to vote 90 years ago.  We still can't merit equal pay, and we're feared because we're graduating from college at higher rates, and entering the workforce in large numbers despite a completely hostile environment.  We aren't fighting racism because a level playing field terrifies people who long for the good old days when everyone knew their place and could be lynched or beaten or raped for stepping out of it.  

          We have a long way to go, and I agree completely that focusing on outside threats is nuts when we have so many internal issues to clean up.  So let's join together and create a movement that pushes back effectively, not just a whiner's symposium.  

          We ARE the people.  We did beat CU in 2012, we got amazing people elected in the dirtiest money election of all time.  Why we keep thinking the power is out there somewhere fucking baffles me.

          I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

          by I love OCD on Fri Jun 07, 2013 at 11:37:01 AM PDT

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          •  It's important to remember that (4+ / 0-)

            the impending "generational shift" that will render the GOP a defunct party was not the result of how people voted or doing get out the vote. That's happening because we got out there and kicked ass in the culture war. That's where the war against rape starts, and the war against fear. Although I don't even want to call those wars, because it isn't a war. I don't know the right word.

            But I don't think we did elect a lot of amazing people elected. I think we got a few, but it doesn't seem that we're making any progress on that front. We're fighting another culture war, and this time it's against an entrenched corporate elite that is trying to convince us that we should be scared all the time and is using all it's financial and social weapons to keep us as oppressed as it can. That's why there is no push to take rape seriously. I've never had anyone explain to me why in the name of god women aren't an included class protected from hate crimes. It's an outrage and yet I don't even seeing progressives talking about it. And not to mention the ERA. Pass that shit already. The destruction of the women's movement was a huge blow to our country and it's only now getting back on track.

            As far as I'm concerned now is the time to start building real grassroots organizations. I had someone here tell me that OFA was grass roots and that Holder really was a progressive. It's similar to Bachman and Palin trying to claim they are feminist. They want to steal our names. I don't really care about what things are called. I don't need to be a liberal or a progressive or a feminist. What I need is to fight for the liberation of all people from oppression. And we can't do that just at the ballot box, we need a movement. As in all past movements, you don't start out at the ballot box, you start with a movement and then out of that movement come people who can get elected and vote how you need them to. It's a long road.

            If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

            by AoT on Fri Jun 07, 2013 at 11:52:24 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Our only real hope is to work locally. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              AoT, Charles CurtisStanley, deep info

              That's where the next generation of politicians is created.  

              Here's my cause for optimism.  I live in a small town in central Texas.  We have zero big box stores because we fight against them.  99% of our restaurants are small and local.  Ace Hdwe is locally owned and our largest employer.  5 years ago we fought off a huge development project, this year we're gearing up to stop another one.  We're politically split and polarized but the guy running for Water District Comissioner was clearly a conservationist not willing to sell our aquifer and his signs stood next to both Romney and Obama signs.  He won.  Our Charter School won a grant to install solar panels and rainwater catchment systems because they proposed using both as community learning programs.  We have fewer lawns and more xeriscaping every year.  There's a thriving Farmer's Market and several organic coops.  My brother is going into beekeeping on a small scale because we're riddled with allergy problems here and local honey seems to be a solution for a lot of people.  

              All of this progress was laughed away as impossible until it became possible, and it only took a few committed people to get things going.  It's a foundation for change that seems widespread in small communities all over Red States and Blue ones.  

              We did elect some really good people who will not do every thing we want them to do.  They also represent people with different wants.  

              I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

              by I love OCD on Fri Jun 07, 2013 at 12:44:06 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Good work. I also agree... (0+ / 0-)

                ... that we're going to have to act locally for quite a while before we get a handle on national problems.

                I actually expect the national government to collapse, in which case acting locally is triply important.

      •  There is no "risk of more 9/11s". That's bogus. (0+ / 0-)

        Since United Flight 93, a repeat of 9/11 has been impossible. 9/11 was possible because people were used to quietly cooperating with hijackers.  It will never happen again, not for a century.

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