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View Diary: No Meatless Monday today since I'm a f**king idiot (143 comments)

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  •  no offense but the weather is such a complicated (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    indubitably, Cedwyn

    system that comparing it to a pan of water is an oversimplification

    In the time that I have been given,
    I am what I am

    by duhban on Mon Jun 10, 2013 at 05:04:17 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  No offense but the science that supports (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BruceMcF, eXtina

      the reality-based interpretation of climate change including the notion that human activity is a major contributing factor now, is both proven and not an oversimplification.

      But if you really want to think that Jesus rode his dinosaur through the streets of Philadelphia when he established this nation, I'm not here to stop you.  I will however object to your desire to make the rest of us suffer because of your willful ignorance.

      LOL - as an aside, the reason that I ever came to dkos i the first place - a fairly long time ago now - was because the people here were reality-based, accepted science and they cared more about basic democratic principles than knee-jerk partisan ideology.

      Times have changed.  But again, history does show us that that is possible.

      The Ancient Greeks were fully aware that the Earth was round, but there was a time when a bunch of fools convinced the people of the world that the Earth was flat.  

      Do you believe that the Earth is flat?  Because it seems like that might work for you given your apparent stance on Climate Change.

      •  oh good fing gods (5+ / 0-)

        just when did I ever say I didn't support climate change?

        Thank you for proving the above point far better then anyone could

        And by the by talking down to a scientist about science qualifies as pretty stupid. I am pretty sure I know more about the actual science of the weather, green house gases etc etc then you do.

        Would you like to find out? I don't mind illustrating my point about the sheer complexity of the weather.

        In the time that I have been given,
        I am what I am

        by duhban on Mon Jun 10, 2013 at 05:36:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oh sorry - didn't know that you (0+ / 0-)

          were a scientist.  Will note for future reference and refrain from responding to comments that you make that sound very much to be anti-science, Fox Newsian next time.

          Will make note to bow down to feet next time.

          Feel better?

          •  you know doubling down on being a jerk (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            indubitably

            isn't going to get you anywhere.

            A simple apology would be nice but I doubt you have it in you.

            The weather is an incredibly complicated system and comparing it to a pan of water is an oversimplification. However to suggest that humanity isn't a factor just because the system is complicated is just as idiotic as you accusing me of making comments that sound anti science.

            In the time that I have been given,
            I am what I am

            by duhban on Mon Jun 10, 2013 at 05:57:35 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  For what it is worth, and I'm sure from (0+ / 0-)

              me there will be a deep discount in your mind, for the average person to understand your highly complex world of science, imagery like boiling pans of water can be highly effective in communicating important scientific concepts that people not nearly as educated as you are might be able to grasp.  But don't worry about my opinion or commentary because I am not nearly as important as you are and my only claim to fame has to do with working on messaging and communications primarily in the scientific and technological arenas.  

              Never mind that.  What is important though is what the fuck the scientific community thought was going to happen when they created the term "Global Warming"?  Do you know how many people I had to talk to to explain that "Global Warming" was a term based exclusively in scientific observations that had in many instances nothing to do with their actual experience with respect to temperature in their area?  That's a BIG mistake that lost this world HUGE amount of time in this battle to avert the real and dangerous consequences of man-made Climate Change.  

              So, pardon me if I am a jerk, but you all for the most part continue to over complicate the real issues and undermine important change - and you all do in most cases make anyone who isn't a scientist and writing things in the most convoluted and complex way feel like IDIOTs which ultimately decreases your potential army of allies - you were lucky to have Al Gore and Davis Guggenheim make the effort to translate the scientific community's double-speak into something that people could understand, empathize with and assimilate into their consciousness.  Super lucky for all of us because the scientific community has failed miserably to connect in critical ways and in this critical situation.

              Your comment was just so arrogant and unhelpful that it was difficult for me not to respond in the way that I did.  I am sorry to hurt your feelings, but if you care about stopping Climate Change to the extent that that is possible now, I would suggest that you think about how you can best communicate how that might happen rather than attacking people's metaphors or similes.

              I would also suggest that if you really care, you would not tell everyone who does not hold high degrees of education that they can never understand and that it is "too complicated" because they WILL give up trying to both understand and trying to do their part to mitigate the damage.

              With best wishes, The Jerk

              •  you know I am not against (3+ / 0-)

                a metaphor, hell I use them all the time to explain science.

                I am against a poor metaphor, you want a better one? Try imagining an incredibly complicated and intricate clockwork device. Now imagine what happens when you start to make changes to it, let's say you chip a couple gears, speed it up a little or even remove gears.

                That is what global warming really is, it's a factor and one that may or may not completely change the weather as we know it.

                I get your frustration but science is an inherently conservative one (and before you flip out I am not talking conservative ideology) where any claims made state small and go from there.

                Could the whole thing have been handled better? Yeah probably but the last thing you want to do in science is make a claim you not only can not back up but can reproduce at will.

                I am sorry if you thought I was telling you it is too complicated because that's not what I meant. What I meant was that the metaphor is wrong and using it likely conveys the wrong idea.

                Choosing the right metaphor is hugely important, more so when you are trying to explain something as complicated as the weather. That's all I meant in my original comment.

                In the time that I have been given,
                I am what I am

                by duhban on Mon Jun 10, 2013 at 06:42:43 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  On these points we actually agree. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  duhban

                  I have a lot of experience with scientists and the limitations of their level of commitment especially in terms of geology and weather where the data they are comfortable with is based on millions and thousands of years respectively before they are comfortable taking a stand.  I had something to do with pressing some important people to discuss the role of black and white smokers at the bottom of the ocean and their suspected role in the makeup of the Ocean's chemistry, etc.

                  In any case, I do express an angry impatience with the scientific community in part because I know that most scientists know and can't find ways to refute the links between Climate Change and changing weather - they just don't have hundreds and thousands of years of research to back up their suspicions which are probably correct.  I am admittedly frustrated that the scientific community has often been its own worst enemy on the Climate Change front.  A denier gets on TV and denies absolutely - while the people who know that these things are connected get on and equivocate, hedge and apologize - and ultimately teach nothing not to mention often confuse people greatly.

                  Anyway, if you see a metaphor you think isn't right - instead of dismissing it - maybe you could do the public service of actually offering up one that is better and more accurate.

      •  There is climate change (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Wee Mama, aitchdee, Cedwyn

        And there is weather.

        The distinction is not insignificant.

        •  Yes and climate change does nothing to (0+ / 0-)

          change weather patterns?

          Thanks for the Fox and Friends distinction.

          And now you're going to tell me that cow farts are more impactful on weather changes than fossil fuels so that I don't eat meat, right?  

          •  Are you always this antagonistic? (7+ / 0-)

            It definitely belies your username... :(

            "We have only the moral ground we actually inhabit, not the moral ground we claim." - It Really Is That Important

            by Diogenes2008 on Mon Jun 10, 2013 at 06:20:02 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Not always. (0+ / 0-)

              Just when I think that people are jerking other people around and/or playing games when important issues are being discussed.

              I have explained many times that "inclusive" doesn't mean that I invite mass murderers and malefic types into my house to eat my food and do what they want.  "Inclusive" means that people who come in peace, with good intention for this country, the people and the people that they personally encounter are welcome and even venerated in my mind.

              Being inclusive does not mean being some sort of nut who would rationalize or excuse people like Dick Cheney, Rupert Murdoch, Terrorists, The Unibomber, Richard Nixon, Hitler, Pinochet or any other number of ugly, destructive people that the people of this world has had to content with.

          •  Your understanding of what's going on (0+ / 0-)

            Is very poor and, in fact, a pretty good illustration of the Fox-Newsification of the issue of our times.

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