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  •  Well, goody for you. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    duhban

    Maybe more credulous reading of state run media will make me as sophisticated as you.

    "We're now in one of those periods when the reality of intense pressure on the middle class diverges from long-held assumptions of how the American bargain should work" --James Fallows

    by Inland on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 02:20:46 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Aquiring and using a passport could help (0+ / 0-)

      broaden your understanding.

      •  funny I could say that of (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Inland

        just about everyone running around with their on hair about the US being a 'police state' when almost certainly the vast majority of people here have never had the experience of living in one.

        In the time that I have been given,
        I am what I am

        by duhban on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 04:00:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  People are worried that the U.S. is becoming one (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TheMomCat, 3goldens, Kombema, Tirge Caps

          The trend is there.  Police states don't just form out of the ether, you know.  A police state must be nurtured into existence, and without an outright coup to overthrow the government it must be introduced incrementally, until one day, people wake up to the fact that they no longer have the ability to think, say and do things that were once commonplace and acceptable.

        •  You clearly could use some time (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Just Bob, kyril, devis1, Dianna, jec

          in other places here in the US. Where I live can very much be described as a police state and pretty much all of those who live here can see it. Or we could look at New York and the police state that Bloomberg has built. Sure, most suburbs aren't so bad, on the surface but having grown up there I know the brutality laying just under the surface.

          And then there's the fact that we have the largest prison population in the entire world. But I'm sure Americans are just more criminal than the rest of the world. Especially those black and brown people who are imprisoned disproportionately. But a police state can't be racist, police states always oppress everyone equally.

          If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

          by AoT on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 04:54:42 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I have seen nothing (0+ / 0-)

            that comes even close to a police state in the US. Nowhere I can think of in the US is the press censored, can you be put under 'house arrest' indefinitely for 'subversive actions' etc etc

            Yes we have a prison problem but that is a consequence of the 'war on drugs' then anything else.

            In the time that I have been given,
            I am what I am

            by duhban on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 05:16:27 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  So it doesn't count because it's just (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              kyril, jec

              black and brown folks being imprisoned in a war on things that people willingly put into their body instead of what willingly comes out of their mouth. It's rather convenient that the one right that the US supposedly has the most freedom in, speech, is the primary determinant of a police state. The deliberate mass disenfranchisement of people of color and poor whites that has swung more than one presidential election, 2000 being the most notable, doesn't make us a police state, because people can talk about it and stuff. And if you think the US doesn't trump up charges against political dissidents then you just haven't been paying attention.

              If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

              by AoT on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 05:33:18 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  really you want to go there? (0+ / 0-)

                wow well if you want to make this about race I think we are about done

                In the time that I have been given,
                I am what I am

                by duhban on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 05:34:26 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Because fascism and a police state (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  jec, Dr Erich Bloodaxe RN

                  have nothing to do with race, right? Why are we not allowed to bring up race?

                  If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

                  by AoT on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 05:42:31 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  you are confusing correlation for causation (0+ / 0-)

                    In the time that I have been given,
                    I am what I am

                    by duhban on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 05:48:21 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  No, you're dismissing reality (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      jec

                      The police regularly kill people and we have the largest prison population on the planet. That's a police state.

                      If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

                      by AoT on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 09:11:36 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  no a police state (0+ / 0-)

                        is china where you can't even access facebook sometimes least you see something 'subversive' or where people that question the government either disappear or are put in indefinite house arrest.

                        Your definition of 'police state' is not the common one and frankly I think it useless.

                        Our prison population is the result of the 'war on drugs' a war that thankfully is winding down now and as a result we should finally have less of a prison population.

                        And as to the police, well we are never going to agree on your myopic view on the police so let's leave it there.

                        In the time that I have been given,
                        I am what I am

                        by duhban on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 01:40:18 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  As I pointed out (0+ / 0-)

                          The one freedomwe happen to have the most of is also the only thing that matters to some people when defining the police state. And people in China are not disapeared for criticizing the government. Generally speaking they are censored on social networks when they talk about organizing against the government, but just criticizing the government is fine. And most people who are actually jailed for dissent are jailed on trumped up charges, like Ai Wei Wei. The point being that your simplistic version of a police state isn't even true in the example you give.

                          If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

                          by AoT on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 11:52:42 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  really? (0+ / 0-)

                            http://www.nytimes.com/...

                            I'll take your apology at any time

                            In the time that I have been given,
                            I am what I am

                            by duhban on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 12:03:30 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Well, I apologize (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            duhban

                            At the same time, the primary method they use isn't disappearances, it's trumped up charges, and these disappearances are a newish thing, but China has been a police state for most, if not all, of it's modern existence.

                            I haven't really seen a definition of police state here from either side. You also haven't said anything about the racist justice system and why that makes us not a police state. I don't see the rule of law, for as much as we still have that here, as being antithetical to a police state. What makes a country a police state?

                            If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

                            by AoT on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 12:16:33 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  fair enough (0+ / 0-)

                            a police state to me is like China, it's a state where the government openly and easily not only monitors everything you do but censors it. A police state doesn't allow for dissent they either disappear you or arrests you on bullshit charges.

                            Racism is not really part of a police state not inherently, true it can be part of it. After all racism and xenophobia are very useful in getting the populace to agree to your demands.

                            The very fact we can have this discussion and no one is going to show up at your doorstep to talk about your 'attitude' is proof that this isn't a police state.

                            In the time that I have been given,
                            I am what I am

                            by duhban on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 12:33:20 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  People have these sorts of discussions in China (0+ / 0-)

                            They are censored once they start talking about organizing or once they actually organize. You'll note that in the article you linked to. The US does have a history of targetting organizers, although now they've managed to do it without actually arresting people. But, again, you seem to be focussing primarily on free speech as being the important aspect of a police state. Why do the other amendments not have equal weight? Free speech doesn't mean much when it doesn't cange anything.

                            If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

                            by AoT on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 01:52:44 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  where do they? (0+ / 0-)

                            not on the internet that's for sure, in public places? Again not there

                            No police state can stop all discussion but they can and do find almost all of them eventually.

                            As to your comment about organizations, of course they are  investigated. You can be outraged by that if you want, I would argue that the government is doing it's due diligence to make sure said groups are not planning something violent.

                            Has that always happened? No the reaction to the flower child/hippie movement was overblown and in some places certainly fascist to some extent. But you don't get to cherry pick here, thousands of organizations have been duely investigated over even the last 100 years and most of them are then left alone.

                            And yes I concentrate on free speech because it's the easiest way to identify a police state but if you would like to talk about another amendment sure. Which one?  

                            In the time that I have been given,
                            I am what I am

                            by duhban on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 08:36:47 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  maybe the 4th? (0+ / 0-)

                            How about the eighth? Or the tenth.

                            If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

                            by AoT on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 10:01:36 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

        •  And tell us about your experiences living in one. (0+ / 0-)

          Where are you Mississippi?

        •  I haves lived in one and another former one (0+ / 0-)

          And this is not one.  However several of the key elements are being constructed.  This ought to really worry all of us

          Touch all that arises with a spirit of compassion

          by Mindful Nature on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 10:01:58 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I've used mine to go to Pinochet's Chile, China, (0+ / 0-)

        and Canada.  What's more, I've acquired and used something other than a knee jerk tribalism to impress people down at the Kaffeehaus, so I'm smart enough to tell the difference between them, and to not get my lessons about civil liberties from China's state owned news organs.  

        "We're now in one of those periods when the reality of intense pressure on the middle class diverges from long-held assumptions of how the American bargain should work" --James Fallows

        by Inland on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 06:42:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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